Bec

How can saying "anyone who so much as thinks of using using tools is not fit to own a dog" not be considered directly insulting? I have no problem with anyone who says they don't personally like the tool but I don't think it's right that people attack and personally insult anyone who does support the tool, or post blatant misinformation about the way the tool works. Most if not all of these people have no direct experience using e collars. I've been a member of this community for many years and I have always tried never to resort to personally insulting anyone. I can't say the same for other members. I don't have much time for posting on forums anymore but I guess I have a bit of sentimental value for this forum. However I think the time has come to step away. This will be my last post here. I'm sure many of you will be relieved

Have you ever used one on yourself daltor? It's important to remember EVERY tool needs to be used properly, any tool can be used to abuse a dog, I've seen people beating dogs with leashes before and I've seen injuries sustained from tools like head collars and check chains, even flat collars. Are you really telling me that I'm not fit to own a dog?

I think there are many tools more readily available for people to buy, that they then misuse, than shock collars. Check chains, head collars etc can all inflict injury on the dog in fact are more likely to inflict an actual injury than an e collar. E collars aren't readily available; many people don't know about them; and they are much more expensive than other tools that you can buy at the supermarket. They can be misused but no more likely than any other tool.

Yep, many times, and I've put them on people for them to test on themselves many times too

No judgment, just an example of where you are happy to inflict pain on your dogs if its of benefit to them

Firstly, I was responding to the post I quoted which said all you need to train your dogs is your voice and if you use a shock collar you don't deserve to own dogs. Secondly That's not what I am implying at all, the point I am making is that you can't write off a tool until you've had more experience with desperate owners who have dogs with real, often dangerous problems. It's not, as you say, that simple. [quote Most of those on this forum are not trainers, and do not have the experience to use the tools that you recommend. It's fine and good to explain that they are a tool, but people will see your willingness to use them and assume that is what they need and are likely to buy one and attempt to learn it on their own.

So you've never vaccinated your dogs, or microchipped them? How can you say "people who use shock collars shouldn't have dogs" and not intend to upset anyone? I'm speaking only from personal experience using this tool and seeing it used on MANY dogs. Ive also put it on myself multiple times and i need to reiterate that it does not cause pain. I am Not only talking about using e collars, but having the privilege of seeing different dogs every day - a range of breeds, behavioral problems, temperaments and different owners. Try telling an owner bawling their eyes out in despair thinking their only option is having their dog PTS that all they need to train their dog is their voice.

Again I think there's some misunderstanding about how the tool is actually used The dog is taught recall with the collar but the end result is still that you have a dog that responds reliably to its recall command. You don't keep stimming the dog forever. You wouldn't be able to tell how the dog was trained. The collar is just the tool to help the dog learn much like how you'd use a food reward.

Emma I understand what you are saying but I think your argument is based on a misunderstanding of how the tool works. It's not painful and you don't "shock" them for non compliance with the command you teach them what the stim means and how to respond to it. The e collar at the end of the day is just a tool and how well it works depends entirely on the person using it People who use or rather misuse a tool to abuse their dogs will sadly abuse them regardless of what tool they are using.

Hey Al, I will see what I can do. Will start another thread for you

Just to clarify my favorite method of training is training in drive, which means you are using food or toys to give the dog an awesome reward experience and work with their natural instinct. My dogs are highly motivated to work with me but I also know from experience this style of training whilst I love it, doesn't suit every dog and owner for various reasons

So you don't agree with using any tools like no pull harnesses, head collars, martingales etc? When a desperate dog owner comes to see us for training and says "this is my last stop before I have it PTS" it's a matter of life of death for the dog and you have one opportunity to give the owner hope back. It goes back to what I said before that not all methods are suitable for all owners and dogs. On a lighter note when it comes to training new behaviors I think using +R is a great way to get the dog to learn but it's not so effective when the dog has already learnt and developed a bad behavior like counter surfing for example. Applying a quick correction immediately teaches the dog that behavior is no longer successful. And for dogs that are highly driven the loss of a reward can be more stressful to them than a physical correction - so I don't believe using rewards in training is stress free

I'm not sure what you're point is here - are you saying you only ever use two of the four quadrants? How many dogs have you trained to LLW using only +R and -P? Not being snarky, genuinely curious IMO all quadrants have their place in training and you can use a combination of them in the same training session. It's not just one or the other.

I think the point is that if you look at it from a training perspective - yes there are other ways train a recall (for example). But you also have to take into account the skill level of the owner; the dogs temperament and history; the dogs behavior Etc. Many pet owners don't want to spend months or years training recall, and there is no way to build a reliable recall faster or easier than using a e collar. Some people would otherwise never have a dog trained to recall reliably. The end result is a happy dog and owner which can only be a great thing. When it comes to behavior that is flat out dangerous to other dogs or people its also vital that the owner can get control back with the dog as quickly as possible. Often people argue in these threads that there are so many other methods that work just as well and whilst its true there are lots of other methods that can be effective not every method is suitable for every dog and owner.

What's wrong with that? Genuine question. The dogs get to run off leash and enjoy freedom they otherwise wouldn't have had. It proofs their recall which can only be a good thing. I obviously have no problem with remote training collars like I have no problem with many other tools, like anything it relies on the person to use it properly. I have seen 100s of dogs trained with e collars and I use them myself. A good quality collar has around 100 levels of stim - modern e collar training uses the collar on the lowest perceivable level to the dog. It's not painful. It's not electrocuting them or anything like that. The lowest perceivable level is less aversive to the dog than the vibration level. I've not met one person, even people who are hesitant or have heard bad things about e collars, be against the tool once being shown how to use it properly. In fact people think they are awesome especially once they see how quickly and easily it gets results and how well the dog responds to it. Setting out to use one on a puppy as has been described in the OP is clearly not the right way to use the tool, but that doesn't make the tool itself bad. It's just a tool that needs the user to use it properly