A Deadly Disease!

[proximity]

Lets take the exercise argument totally off the table. You can get sufficient exercise on or off leash. If someone is only going to exercise their dog for 30 minutes a day, the on leash/off leash is not relevant.

It doesnt impact on the discussion, and only serves to dilute points people are trying to make.

I let my two off leash all the time, but only in fully fenced/enclosed areas. Theres nothing quite like seeing them go full leather, catching each other by the tail, spinning them around, and then the chase happening all over again with the chaser now being the chasee - but I'm just not comfortable with the idea of that going on on the side of the road. I like to think of our current situation as a happy compromise. I'd like to get a couple of hundred foot leads so that if I go to a beach or something like that, they can get enough freedom to really enjoy themselves, and I can get enough peace of mind to know they're safe.

[AustintatiousTX]

A great reminder!

You can talk about training all you like, but better dogs than most have been lost due to a dog's natural instinct to chase prey.

Especially when you have a breed like this with such a strong prey drive, you can never be too careful. I could never forgive myself if something happened to Miko because of me.

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Lets take the exercise argument totally off the table. You can get sufficient exercise on or off leash. If someone is only going to exercise their dog for 30 minutes a day, the on leash/off leash is not relevant.

It doesnt impact on the discussion, and only serves to dilute points people are trying to make.

I let my two off leash all the time, but only in fully fenced/enclosed areas. Theres nothing quite like seeing them go full leather, catching each other by the tail, spinning them around, and then the chase happening all over again with the chaser now being the chasee - but I'm just not comfortable with the idea of that going on on the side of the road. I like to think of our current situation as a happy compromise. I'd like to get a couple of hundred foot leads so that if I go to a beach or something like that, they can get enough freedom to really enjoy themselves, and I can get enough peace of mind to know they're safe.

good post mine have 100ft leads - they are a GOD-send

[Staceybob]

IMO that's not about trust, that's about lack of training.

That's really sad, but probably wouldn't have been a problem if the dog had been trained in prey drive...

Sorry, you're missing the point of my post. That dog and the other 2 were amazingly trained and never chased after anything.

I don't think there is such a thing as training in prey drive, you can do as much as you like to prevent it, but like in the three cases I mentioned, all it takes is for a dog to be in a different frame of mind on a different day; and no matter how much you train your dog, you cannot possibly guarantee your dog is 100% reliable.

I'm not saying don't let them off the lead, I'm just saying everyone should listen to this poem and consider whether they put too much trust into their dogs recall and consider the fact that if the dog was in a different frame of mind, are they in a safe area so no accidents can occur. This should be used as a reminder to everyone, not a reason to debate over training.

Stacey xxx

[Bec]

It's built into the breed to not be good off-leash and I truly think it's detrimental for people to be boasting about how their dog is off-lead or how it's just a training issue.

Because, IMO, not having a reliable recall IS a training issue. Let me just be clear. I don't boast about being able to let my dogs off leash. I am happy to explain to anyone the length of time and dedication it took. I don't think the average owner knows how to train a drivey dog to recall. In fact, I am one of the first people to say that if you can't say for 100% sure that if a rabbit ran in front of your dog, you could call him back - do not let him off leash. Don't assume that my dislike of this article is because I think anyone should be able to let their dog off leash. I don't think that at all. But IMO the vast majority of 'my husky ran away when I let him off leash' stories here all come back to one thing: lack of training. Take the earlier example of the puppy being let off leash and not coming back - who expects a puppy to recall when it's had no or hardly any training?? Why would anyone let their dog off leash just "to see" what it would do?

I gotta agree I think off leash is a bad choice and an accident waiting to happen and I hope for all the dog's sakes nothing ever actually happens.

Personally, I think people's ego's get in the way when it comes to off leash training as if there is some sort of kudos with having a "reliable" husky with "perfect" recall. No offence intended of course but that is the way I see it. When my pup's go to their new homes it is in the contract that they will NEVER be walked off leash....even then obviously I can't control the new owners BUT if it even makes them question it for a second then my job is done.

As a breeder don't you think it's a shame you won't permit your puppy buyers to do most dog sports?

The post wasn't meant to attack you davidjk, it wasn't even geared to anyone specifically.

Except you're clearly directing it at me by quoting what I've said.

Please note. I'm not saying for you to stop taking your dogs off-lead as they're your dogs and you can do what you like with them. But when people say (NOT pointing fingers or gearing this to anyone specifically) that it's a training issue, or a this and that issue, or they don't respect you... I feel that's wrong.

Again perhaps it's just me but I fail to see how getting a reliable recall is anything other than a training issue.

Just because I think it needs to be said... Bec has other breeds other than a husky so when she says she lets her dogs off lead, please be awear that she is not nessasily taking about a husky.

Hi Sarah, that is quite true, my other breed is a beagle, who has actually been far harder to train to work off leash than my Siberian. It's funny a lot of beagle owners have told me they can't be let off leash either...

I don't think there is such a thing as training in prey drive, you can do as much as you like to prevent it, but like in the three cases I mentioned, all it takes is for a dog to be in a different frame of mind on a different day; and no matter how much you train your dog, you cannot possibly guarantee your dog is 100% reliable.

Why would you want to "prevent" prey drive? Why not use it to your advantage as a trainer seeing as Siberians are so prey driven and that is what prevents most people from having a reliable recall? You should do some research on drive training Training a dog in prey drive is a great way to build a reliable recall. Take a look at the vast majority of dogs competing in Schutzhund - they are all highly prey driven dogs, far more than your average Siberian, and they work in prey drive. It is actually highly desirable to have a competition dog with a high prey drive, in fact a lot of people intentionally breed for it in quite a few breeds.

[Arooroomom]

Except you're clearly directing it at me by quoting what I've said.

This is the first time quoting you, Bec. My first post in this topic had no quotes and was directed to no one. It was simply an opinion.

Because, IMO, not having a reliable recall IS a training issue.

OK. Using the same logic. Let's say I have an American Pit Bull Terrier (a breed widely used in dog fighting as well as notoriously known for being dog aggressive.) Is my dog aggressive because of a training issue? Or because that's the way the dogs mind has been built and created by humans? Of course aggression isn't really the same thing as prey drive (which is in essence why it makes them so hard to be off lead) but I believe the question is still valid.

I respect the fact that you have a good recall with your Siberian, really I do. But I think for the average Husky owner (or, Pit Bull owner?) this isn't really a realistic option.

[Leaddog]

Ack I never meant for this poem to cause such a problem...all it was meant to do was bring awareness to the dangers of letting your dogs off lead.

Its kinda like what ends up being said in the food arguments that nothing is meant to push my beliefs on anyone as anyone can choose what they want for their own dog, but my personal opinion is that I will never let my dogs (Huskies or not) off lead. I do train my dogs for recall but only just in case for emergencies. I have posted before that I have really bad anxiety and worry over everything and I have to look at the what ifs before I can decide to do anything, and for off lead the what if of one of my children getting hurt and possibly dying is too great of a chance for me to take. It may not be what my dogs like as they would love to run around completely free, so I will admit that I am extremely selfish in the fact that I want to keep them from doing something they want to do, but just only getting my foot into the door of Veterinary Medicine I have already witnessed in my shadowing experiences too many dogs hit by cars...and I know as I continue to go further with my studies those cases will just multiply and get worse.

When I read that someone posted that many dogs are breed to be prey driven it reminded me that Huskies really were originally bred to be independent thinkers and not always listen to their owners...if you think about a team of huskies pulling the musher through the forest and the musher gives them the command to go right and the dogs smell a grizzly bear or a moose to the right...they are smart enough to ignore what the musher says and turn left instead while I can imagine a team of golden retrievers or labs would pull them straight into the danger lol this is one of the many characteristics I love about huskies because it is a key part of their crazy personalities lol

[Bec]

This is the first time quoting you, Bec. My first post in this topic had no quotes and was directed to no one. It was simply an opinion.

I was referring to where you were talking about people who say it's a "training problem" etc.

OK. Using the same logic. Let's say I have an American Pit Bull Terrier (a breed widely used in dog fighting as well as notoriously known for being dog aggressive.) Is my dog aggressive because of a training issue? Or because that's the way the dogs mind has been built and created by humans? Of course aggression isn't really the same thing as prey drive (which is in essence why it makes them so hard to be off lead) but I believe the question is still valid.

Dealing with aggression is ABSOLUTELY a training issue.

You need to understand how to work with a dog's natural instinct, rather than against it, IMO. Prey drive is actually a highy desirable trait in many working and competition dogs.

[SaraB]

Reminds me of a story my dog trainer told me about her first irish setter. She was still young, but well trained and good on recall. She had friends over that had a little kid. When they were leaving, they left the door open for too long cause they were fussing with the kid and the setter ran out. My trainer called her. She looked back as if to say, "Don't worry mom! I'll be right back!" right as she was getting to the road and then a car hit and killed her. It's been 10+ years and my trainer still can't tell the story without tearing up. It wasn't really a trust thing there, more of an accident, but it shows you that even trained dogs have their moments. Just hopefully they aren't their last.

I think as long as your dog has a very good recall and you are in a place with no traffic for miles, it's ok. But if there are any roads near by, I wouldn't chance it. Cars are just too dangerous and it's crazy how quickly it can happen. At my parent's house, the neighbor kid left the gate between our yards open. One of my mom's rescue dogs ran out and immediately got hit and killed. It was so sad.

[snssewell]

Ack I never meant for this poem to cause such a problem...all it was meant to do was bring awareness to the dangers of letting your dogs off lead.

Its kinda like what ends up being said in the food arguments that nothing is meant to push my beliefs on anyone as anyone can choose what they want for their own dog, but my personal opinion is that I will never let my dogs (Huskies or not) off lead. I do train my dogs for recall but only just in case for emergencies. I have posted before that I have really bad anxiety and worry over everything and I have to look at the what ifs before I can decide to do anything, and for off lead the what if of one of my children getting hurt and possibly dying is too great of a chance for me to take. It may not be what my dogs like as they would love to run around completely free, so I will admit that I am extremely selfish in the fact that I want to keep them from doing something they want to do, but just only getting my foot into the door of Veterinary Medicine I have already witnessed in my shadowing experiences too many dogs hit by cars...and I know as I continue to go further with my studies those cases will just multiply and get worse.

When I read that someone posted that many dogs are breed to be prey driven it reminded me that Huskies really were originally bred to be independent thinkers and not always listen to their owners...if you think about a team of huskies pulling the musher through the forest and the musher gives them the command to go right and the dogs smell a grizzly bear or a moose to the right...they are smart enough to ignore what the musher says and turn left instead while I can imagine a team of golden retrievers or labs would pull them straight into the danger lol this is one of the many characteristics I love about huskies because it is a key part of their crazy personalities lol

I think some people just read into it to much. I thought it was a great poem and that the majority of the people appreciate you posting it, like me, since I just recently experienced what its like to have a pet lost and thanks god she did not get hit by a car or eaten by coyotes and came back. I did not feel like you was pushing your beliefs on anyone and I know you posted it with only good intention in mind.

[Arooroomom]

I don't think it caused any problems at all. There's nothing wrong with a healthy bit of difference of opinions

[Staceybob]

Why would you want to "prevent" prey drive? Why not use it to your advantage as a trainer seeing as Siberians are so prey driven and that is what prevents most people from having a reliable recall? You should do some research on drive training Training a dog in prey drive is a great way to build a reliable recall. Take a look at the vast majority of dogs competing in Schutzhund - they are all highly prey driven dogs, far more than your average Siberian, and they work in prey drive. It is actually highly desirable to have a competition dog with a high prey drive, in fact a lot of people intentionally breed for it in quite a few breeds.

Sorry, you're starting to confuse me now. You say that people's dogs wont come back because they're not trained enough in their 'prey drive' surely encouraging a prey drive will encourage them to chase things, meaning they will be more likely to run off. I thought you meant training against them chasing things.

I'm failing to see the logic there.

Stacey xxx

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Reminds me of a story my dog trainer told me about her first irish setter. She was still young, but well trained and good on recall. She had friends over that had a little kid. When they were leaving, they left the door open for too long cause they were fussing with the kid and the setter ran out. My trainer called her. She looked back as if to say, "Don't worry mom! I'll be right back!" right as she was getting to the road and then a car hit and killed her. It's been 10+ years and my trainer still can't tell the story without tearing up. It wasn't really a trust thing there, more of an accident, but it shows you that even trained dogs have their moments. Just hopefully they aren't their last.

I think as long as your dog has a very good recall and you are in a place with no traffic for miles, it's ok. But if there are any roads near by, I wouldn't chance it. Cars are just too dangerous and it's crazy how quickly it can happen. At my parent's house, the neighbor kid left the gate between our yards open. One of my mom's rescue dogs ran out and immediately got hit and killed. It was so sad.

i know i simalar story - i know a woman who had two sibes - GREAT offlead ALWAYS listened - they used to even go off to rabbit island which is past the feild i take mine too - and then home again, they even had a little den aswell - then one day somebody left the gate open - 1 came back - the owners searched for DAYS, WEEKS ect looking for her other boy in all the places him annd his brother used to go and further - but she never found him we dont no what happened to him at all - we dont no if hes been taken in, living wild or something worse - and we never will know its soooo sad - they had been left off lead for YEARS then one day BOOM - gone its rly not worth the risk imo

[raindog]

i know i simalar story - i know a woman who had two sibes - GREAT offlead ALWAYS listened - they used to even go off to rabbit island which is past the feild i take mine too - and then home again, they even had a little den aswell - then one day somebody left the gate open - 1 came back - the owners searched for DAYS, WEEKS ect looking for her other boy in all the places him annd his brother used to go and further - but she never found him we dont no what happened to him at all - we dont no if hes been taken in, living wild or something worse - and we never will know its soooo sad - they had been left off lead for YEARS then one day BOOM - gone its rly not worth the risk imo

Exactly! There is a reason why every single Siberian Husky related organisation IN THE WORLD recommends that huskies be kept on lead in unenclosed areas and that reason is bitter experience!

Yes! training is important - recall training might be the difference between life and death for your dog, but you can no more trust "training" than you can trust your Siberian's recall.

It is significant that many of those happily claiming to let their sibes offlead successfully are relatively new and inexperienced owners with very young dogs. One of the characteristics of Siberians, is that they are/can be extremely obedient as pups/youngsters - then adolescence hits and all bets are off!

This was Quilla (Dreamcatcher's Misspelt)

Quilla was a remarkable Siberian. From our first litter in 1996, Quilla was bought by a dog trainer called Mary as a companion for her Sibe/Collie cross Sadie. Mary was determined that Quilla was not only trainable, but capable of achieving distinction in both obedience and agility. This she proved beyond doubt as Quilla proceeded through the levels of obedience and later began agility training. One of Mary’s proudest moments was when, in competition, Quilla achieved her first clear round.Quilla’s relationship with Mary had to be seen to be believed and the two were inseparable. Then one day tragedy struck. Quilla, at aged 5, did something she had never done before - jumped a fence into a neighbour’s garden, ignored Mary's recall, escaped onto a road and was killed by a car.

There has probably never been a better trained and more obedient Siberian than Quilla, but on that one occasion when it really mattered, training was ignored, instinct took over and tragedy followed.

Trust is a deadly disease, but not as deadly as complacency and refusal to listen to the vast weight of experience.

Mick

[Bec]

I think some people just read into it to much. I thought it was a great poem and that the majority of the people appreciate you posting it, like me, since I just recently experienced what its like to have a pet lost and thanks god she did not get hit by a car or eaten by coyotes and came back. I did not feel like you was pushing your beliefs on anyone and I know you posted it with only good intention in mind.

I'm not reading into it too much at all. I just find it incredibly irritating. I consider myself to be a responsible dog owner, who puts a lot of time and effort into training my dogs, yet the article in the OP aims to make me feel like an irresponsible owner who puts my dogs lives at risk. The message is clear: don't bother training your dogs because it won't work. I am sick and tired of seeing and hearing about husky owners who don't bother training their dogs because some idiot tells them it can't be done or isn't worth the effort.

Sorry, you're starting to confuse me now. You say that people's dogs wont come back because they're not trained enough in their 'prey drive' surely encouraging a prey drive will encourage them to chase things, meaning they will be more likely to run off. I thought you meant training against them chasing things.

No, I literally mean: using their prey drive to your advantage.

In many working and competition dogs prey drive is a highly desirable trait. The best, most focused, most accurate and reliable dogs are often trained in prey drive. Training in prey drive is a way to harness that natural drive, why would a dog ignore your commands in favour of chasing a rabbit when you have the ultimate prey item in your hand and the dog has been taught, the best way to drive satisfaction is complying with your commands? Do a youtube or google search on understanding prey drive and and how to build and work with it.

A dog having a high prey drive is poor reason for having an unreliable dog, IMO.

It is significant that many of those happily claiming to let their sibes offlead successfully are relatively new and inexperienced owners with very young dogs. One of the characteristics of Siberians, is that they are/can be extremely obedient as pups/youngsters - then adolescence hits and all bets are off!

Mick I agree that's a common problem, but (for the sake of the discussion, not talking about the average pet owner) a good trainer is capable of recognising when a dog is going through that adolescent period where they want to challenge and test boundaries, again that is a training issue IMHO, which is why I always tell people off when they become complacent about training or for doing things like letting their dog off leash just to see how it goes or trusting a puppy/young dog without any real training.

[meeshsalts]

I have never trained Buck Shaer or Talon. I let Buck pretty much do what he wanted for 19 years. We lived with fields at our back gate. He used to escape when ever he wanted too anyway. He had 5 fields with out roads. He 99% of the time stayed in the garden but would leave the garden 3-4 times a day for 15 minutes or so.. Horses-cows in the field didn't bother him and he didn't bother them, OK he liked to run with the horses, they weren't scared of him or him of them. One dark night I was walking him off the lead and he saw 1 horse by it's self which was not right when all the other horses were at the other end of the field. We went upto the horse and I could see it had barbed wire wrapped around one leg. I must state that the horses trusted me and never backed away but came to me in the field. I told buck to sit down and stay and he did, while I got down and unwrapped the wire around he horses leg. In indsight getting down between a horses legs when it is stressed may have not been a good idea. But I trusted the horse and Buck. In all his 19 years he only once ran off and that was because he saw a rabbit.

Shaer is great off the lead so is let off the lead on lots of walks. Talon is not good at recall to often so is only let off when we know he can't go anywhere.

Did I train Buck or Shaer to do this no they came back because I told them to do so.

But just because my dogs are let off the lead doesn't make me want to tell others they should do the same.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Ugh MARK (waves arms and jumps up and down) i reckon enough is enough. IMO ive had enough of the arguements. kara posted it as a gentle reminder of what can happen. i feel the risk far overweighs the benefits. thats what long leads are for! i would never forgive myself if anything happened to storm. cant we just accept we have varying opinions and all be friends?

[Bec]

Meesh, I would never tell anyone they should let their dogs off leash because I do. I hope my posts did not come across that way I just get a bit sick of the insults that tend to get thrown around in relation to people who do let their dogs off leash. And quite frankly, I am tired of people using breed as an excuse for bad or a lack of training. Not talking about anyone specifically - in fact moreso peope in real life than online.

[Staceybob]

Mick I agree that's a common problem, but (for the sake of the discussion, not talking about the average pet owner) a good trainer is capable of recognising when a dog is going through that adolescent period where they want to challenge and test boundaries, again that is a training issue IMHO, which is why I always tell people off when they become complacent about training or for doing things like letting their dog off leash just to see how it goes or trusting a puppy/young dog without any real training.

I'm sorry Bec, but I find that insulting to a tragic story and an amazing dog.

To keep the heat down though, feel free to PM me about this reply instead, because I don't think this important reminder of a poem should be shot down with our debating.

I'll have a look on youtube soon about the prey drive you are describing.

Stacey xxx

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Meesh, I would never tell anyone they should let their dogs off leash because I do. I hope my posts did not come across that way I just get a bit sick of the insults that tend to get thrown around in relation to people who do let their dogs off leash. And quite frankly, I am tired of people using breed as an excuse for bad or a lack of training. Not talking about anyone specifically - in fact moreso peope in real life than online.

i think maybe everybody is right on this - whilst it is necersarry (sp) to train a recal - even if my dog had that recal - i wouldnt let them offlead - i would only use it as an emergancy recall BECAUSE of that fact it is in a sibes/dogs nature to run around, and not all of us are capable of own-training our dogs a 100% recall - i think it would be more possible with a trainer BUT not everybody can afford trainers OR there isnt a trainer close enuf and not being able 2 travel

thats just my opinion - specially after the two sibes owners told me 1 had gone - i wouldnt want to risk that like i said these dogs were good offlead for years then one day one was gone without a trace - i wouldnt be able to get over that

[mrs_aggie]

Ugh MARK (waves arms and jumps up and down) i reckon enough is enough. IMO ive had enough of the arguements. kara posted it as a gentle reminder of what can happen. i feel the risk far overweighs the benefits. thats what long leads are for! i would never forgive myself if anything happened to storm. cant we just accept we have varying opinions and all be friends?

I totally agree and to be honest I'm personally getting bored of the same arguement over and over on different threads. I believe that yes training etc is a good thing, but ultimately you need to know your dog and you level of confidence/comfort in them coming back when called no matter the distraction. Dogs are like everything else, each is different in personality, I'm one of the ones who would never let Nikita off lead, not because of lack of training etc but because I know her personality, no matter what the incentive (even her favourate food) she wont even come in from the garden if she doesnt want too, (90% of the time she does straight away)

No matter if people say never let your dog off lead etc ultimately people will do what they choose to with their dogs anyway,

No offence intended to anyone

[snssewell]

i think maybe everybody is right on this - whilst it is necersarry (sp) to train a recal - even if my dog had that recal - i wouldnt let them offlead - i would only use it as an emergancy recall BECAUSE of that fact it is in a sibes/dogs nature to run around, and not all of us are capable of own-training our dogs a 100% recall - i think it would be more possible with a trainer BUT not everybody can afford trainers OR there isnt a trainer close enuf and not being able 2 travel

thats just my opinion - specially after the two sibes owners told me 1 had gone - i wouldnt want to risk that like i said these dogs were good offlead for years then one day one was gone without a trace - i wouldnt be able to get over that

Thank you Nix. Nicely said. +1 Not everyone in this forum is a professional dog trainer or has the knowledge to train their dog to the extend a professional may be able to. Many can not afford to get a trainer as you said. I was lucky and found mine and she does not charge an arm and a leg. I am 100% sure that everyone here loves their animals whether they are Husky's or not and will do the best they can to love them, care for them, train them to the best of their knowledge and ability, and keep them safe. If that requires not letting them off leash then that is fine.

[kellystewart]

As a breeder don't you think it's a shame you won't permit your puppy buyers to do most dog sports?

how do you work that out? I have no issues and actively encourage dog sports (running them in particular, as that's what they were bred for, obviously they are attached to the rig so off/on leash is irrelevant here) BUT this should NEVER be in an unenclosed area i.e fly ball, agility etc. And apart from anything else I do not control the owners but I do my best to make sure my pup's aren't put in a situation where their life is risked needlessly.

[snssewell]

As a breeder don't you think it's a shame you won't permit your puppy buyers to do most dog sports?

how do you work that out? I have no issues and actively encourage dog sports (running them in particular, as that's what they were bred for, obviously they are attached to the rig so off/on leash is irrelevant here) BUT this should NEVER be in an unenclosed area i.e fly ball, agility etc. And apart from anything else I do not control the owners but I do my best to make sure my pup's aren't put in a situation where their life is risked needlessly.

I would also think that most dog sports are trained in a secured area? No? At least here they are. We have an agility course at our dog park and its enclosed and separated from the area where dogs can go and run around and play like crazy chickens .

[Bec]

how do you work that out? I have no issues and actively encourage dog sports (running them in particular, as that's what they were bred for, obviously they are attached to the rig so off/on leash is irrelevant here) BUT this should NEVER be in an unenclosed area i.e fly ball, agility etc. And apart from anything else I do not control the owners but I do my best to make sure my pup's aren't put in a situation where their life is risked needlessly.

I'm yet to go to a flyball or agility trial where the area is 100% safely secured like any good husky owner would want it to be.

Obedience and agility trials here are more often than not set up in a big open unfenced area. In fact I don't think I've been to one that has had secure fencing.

I will get another Siberian in the future specifically to compete in dog sports with, IMO they are one of the most underrated dog sports breed out there. They are drivey, fast, agile, have great stamina etc. Sure they are stubborn and independent but there's no real reason why the right dog with the right owner couldn't make a great competition team.