Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Okay so I said I'd make a new thread for this... I really think I may just be expecting too much too soon...and that I can accept...what I need at this point is advise, hints and OMG help. We did introductions and walks yesterday...there was some humping that Eponine didn't like yesterday and she let Fox know this...however this morning it's a total turn around...Fox is a huuuuge jelous territorial monster. We got through our morning walk without any issues...literally as soon as we'd crossed the threshold into the house however Fox's demeanor and behavior changed drastically. I'd decided some time ago that we weren't going to have the dogs upstairs...for a variety of reasons...part of it is our library that has some very old and rare books upstairs that are over two hundred years old and would be very difficult to replace...the other part of it is that whenever Fox has gone upstairs he takes a huge dump in the middle of whatever room he's entered into...and of course our desk top is upstairs and it's a 2 hour round trip in any direction to get to where those cords could be replaced if eaten...and I don't want the dogs to get electrocuted. The specific behavior this morning: Walk in house. Close door Fox immediately snarls at Eponine and begins trying to bite her face. Keep in mind that I'm holding both dog leashes and a toddler at this point. Son helps separate dogs whilst I put toddler down behind me. Teeth are barred, hair on the back of the neck is raised on both counts and there is much air gnashing. End up keeping dogs leashed so that they can get some water because it was a bit of a walk. Take Fox into livingroom. Eponine stays in kitchen and drinks. Fox continues to bark and snarl for ten minutes in livingroom Eponine comes into livingroom...scene at front door is repeated Fox goes to his crate in livingroom Eponine goes upstairs Wait a bit... Bring both dogs back into room together... Fox begins being a spazz and snarling whilst trying to bite her face again. Eponine reacts by initially trying to snarl/bite back, but ends up hiding behind oldest daughter. Separate them All the while, Tinkerbell is sitting in the corner staring at them both as if they've gone mad... We've no problems with Tink and Eponine...Fox is however being a bully, and I can't think of a way to end the behavior other than separating them and continuing to walk them together...patience...and continuing to have them in the same room for a few minutes at a time until senior 'this is my house rawr' stops being a crack head. Any advise, past experience, etc is greatly appreciated. I'm aware that this is going to take a lot of time...I just want to make sure that I'm not making things worse by not letting them tear each others faces off or keeping them leashed when they move to common ground together until again the potentially harmful behavior stops. Whilst I type this Eponine is upstairs with my daughter and oldest son, and Fox is laying around in the livingroom...Tink is watching the neighborhood through the window and my toddler is sitting on my shoulders pulling my hair whilst proclaiming 'yah yah!! Galump galump!' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 woah well that sounds like a tough one! >_< I'm not sure, it may die down with time, once they both settle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 can only go from personal experience, but our bitch was a pup when she joined our two boys. we get lots of face nashing and snarling, we tend to give a shout , if that doesnt work the aggressor gets put out the back for 5 , then let back in, if behaviour is repeated same thing happens again. they usually give up after a couple of times. it could just be them trying to figure out who is going to be leader of the pack (which of course is you ) sounds like you are doing a great job. sorry i cant be more help. but in this house we usually leave things to sort them selves out but i havent got little kids which changes everything . mine are huge kids who can hold their own lol by the way i love reading your threads , they always make me giggle you have a wonderful writing style xxxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Shout at me if you like. . . :mad: Sometimes you have to let them go at it. They are obviously trying to sort out pack order. However they can't, because the "Damn Humans" keep interrupting. and. . . until they do get it sorted it may not get any better. We've fostered many dogs before we settled into our current pack. Whenever we brought a new foster dog in all hell would let loose for 24 hrs between at least two of them however by the next morning they had sorted it and each knew where they stood in the pack and they got on great. We've noticed that when we go out leaving them all together, there are NO FIGHTS. They only Kick off when WE are there. Whenever Echo and Darwin have a Spat, we LEAVE THE ROOM immediately. Echo feels she is protecting us from "something" Once we've left the room 10 seconds later it's all quiet. We come back in and they are both hiding curled up together under my computer desk coz they know they've been bad. Sometimes you have to do the exact opposite of what instinct is telling you. Phew !! that's my threppny bits worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydiamond Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 wow sounds bad O_O never thought that it is Fox that will have a hard time accepting Eponine as the member of the pack! Thought male-female get along better =\ Btw it is really rare for a dog of different sex to have a harsh duel-like fighting, so I'll agree with @Andy probably the best you can do is let them settle things by themselves. They NEED to know who is above who in the pack order, and basically this is how dogs make their decision =) Time will heal tho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiya Blue and Miko too Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Wow, sounds like "fun" :eek: We've had Blue about 8 weeks now and have only had three real spats. Second one was totally our fault over food. First and third ones where when Blue just kept pushing Taiya over and over and despite warnings he didn't listen and she has to put him in his place. We've managed to separate it when it's getting too much either by a loud shout or by yanking one of them away. Then for a few weeks it's back to normal and Blue knows Tai is the boss - until next time. We're sure it's them sorting out whose boss and with Blue being about 16/17 months i'm sure it'll happen again! It's not nice and flippin frightening and i'm wishing you all the luck and hugs I can! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ugh! I have no doubt you'll be successful in getting it all sorted out, and it looks like good advice is trickling in. I hope things smooth out sooner rather than later. In the meantime ... ugh!! (And, like someone else pointed out -- loved the post.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Wow, sounds like "fun" :eek: We've had Blue about 8 weeks now and have only had three real spats. Second one was totally our fault over food. First and third ones where when Blue just kept pushing Taiya over and over and despite warnings he didn't listen and she has to put him in his place. We've managed to separate it when it's getting too much either by a loud shout or by yanking one of them away. Then for a few weeks it's back to normal and Blue knows Tai is the boss - until next time. We're sure it's them sorting out whose boss and with Blue being about 16/17 months i'm sure it'll happen again! It's not nice and flippin frightening and i'm wishing you all the luck and hugs I can! Yep as they get older, they get "Bolder" and have to have another go around for domination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 IF you feel you can't just walk away from them when they "Get it on". PLEASE don't grab them by the collar, because This. . . Might happen. That's what I got separating Darwin and Echo in one of their first fights. This was a reaction by Darwin thinking he was being attacked from behind. If there are two of you, each grab the back legs of a dog and pull them away from each other. The time it takes them to react to what you are doing they recognise you and won't bite. You can haul them to separate parts of the room and calm them down. The issue isn't settled but it will be diffused for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taiya Blue and Miko too Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 IF you feel you can't just walk away from them when they "Get it on". PLEASE don't grab them by the collar, because This. . . Might happen. That's what I got separating Darwin and Echo in one of their first fights. This was a reaction by Darwin thinking he was being attacked from behind. If there are two of you, each grab the back legs of a dog and pull them away from each other. The time it takes them to react to what you are doing they recognise you and won't bite. You can haul them to separate parts of the room and calm them down. The issue isn't settled but it will be diffused for now. Ouch, that looks like it was sore! Totally agree about the legs - far safer end to grab! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't have anything to add. Every time I've introduced a new dog into my family there's always been a certain amount of aggressive behaviour. This is something that they're going to have to work out themselves. It has been suggested, and I agree, that the more you interrupt the longer it's going to take them to get it all laid out. Rots 'Ruck!! //al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ouch, that looks like it was sore! Totally agree about the legs - far safer end to grab! First pic is the top of my arm, second is the bottom. Dawins top teeth went in the top bottom underneath and the canines "met" inside my arm. Doc said if he had twisted his head instead of just releasing I'd probably have lost the use of my hand, 'cause it would have ripped tendons and arteries. I count myself to be VERY lucky. However I do not blame Darwin. and I learned a valuable lesson the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Wow I feel like such a chicken scardey pants right now...we took them for another walk...and again they're doing swimmingly on walks...we got in the house again and...rawr craziness...to the point where Fox caught my pant leg because I hadn't moved out of the way yet...(literally barely through the threshold of the house...)Eponine is outside enjoying the yard with my oldest son right now...and Fox is inside rawring up a storm...I was going to do more pics of our walk but...my camera is dead because I forgot to close it after I uploaded pictures earlier...how terribly annoying of me. Working on getting up the courage to just bring them in and let them sort things out...as I said, feeling like a total chicken head right now about how I've handled things thus far. @Andy OMG that looks horrible. Thank you so much for the warning...I might end up waiting until the toddler goes down for her afternoon nap just because I don't want her trying to hop into things to 'help'. Fingers crossed and fingers crossed and fingers crossed some more. Will continue to update as progress is made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma&Cookie Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 The only tip I can give, (I know it's annoying when people say this, and it's easy for us to say) but Keep calm! They definately pick up on your tension, so if you try and be as calm as possible, it will be much easier Good luck x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Jones Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Got no experience of this as we introduced our second dog as a pup and they just seemed to accept each other and althoug Freya puts Indi in her place they have never really had a real fight. Think Indi would have a heart attack as she is the biggest softy going Good luck though and keep us posted on how you get on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutsibe Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Some good advice - and what would work best likely depends on the individual dogs. Tails are also good to grab! Let us know how things go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Wow I feel like such a chicken scardey pants right now... Working on getting up the courage to just bring them in and let them sort things out...as I said, feeling like a total chicken head right now about how I've handled things thus far. No, No, No, don't beat yourself up. Better if you learn by the mistakes and experience of others. When you have two snarling, angry fighting dogs it's only natural to feel apprehensive. It's a scary situation. Have you tried letting one dog in first. waiting for a minute then coming in with the second. Just that minutes separation might diffuse the situation. If it doesn't then they are fighting over YOU to be close to YOU as YOU enter the house. Just more rambling thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 No, No, No, don't beat yourself up. Better if you learn by the mistakes and experience of others. When you have two snarling, angry fighting dogs it's only natural to feel apprehensive. It's a scary situation. Have you tried letting one dog in first. waiting for a minute then coming in with the second. Just that minutes separation might diffuse the situation. If it doesn't then they are fighting over YOU to be close to YOU as YOU enter the house. Just more rambling thoughts. We have tried bringing one in at a time...and the results are the same. We've even alternated who comes in first, and experimented briefly with whom to let out of their crate first, putting a bit of time between who wanders out of their crates first etc,...still a bit off til toddler does her nap but I will definately keep the universe posted. Kidlets are due back from the park soon so I may just send toddler to go play in her toy universe for a bit with one of the other kidlets whilst myself and our oldest son supervise the impending chaos... When have they gone too far? I mean I obviously don't want two bloodied dogs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 As both I and Linda @valkyries have learned sometimes blood is drawn. They are both going for a grip on the neck and to force the other down in that position to make them submit. In the struggle to get into that winning position, they grip other bits and teeth grip and hold. Blood is usually drawn by the other dogs twisting to get out of that hold. I know it's not nice, but it sometimes happens. However, eventually they WILL get it sorted and will settle. You're just in the worst of it at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Since you have an "out back" (since that is where son is now) what happens if they're both in the back yard? If they can work it out there, there'll be less chaos in the house and you can control access to children - you and eldest and a water hose for when it get's too bad. Since they behave for you when on leash, I'd see how they play in the back yard. It sounds very much like "territory" (duh!) they're wanting to control and either you or the house is the contested item. How much to let them go - when I brought Misty home (she at a year) my Lab (at about 13) objected - but she also objected when we were outside. There were a few scratches but nothing serious - that's not to say that your two might not get into it "hot and heavy". There're, imo, opinion a couple of things gong on here. One is the obvious territorial issue they're having; the other is going to be your ability to control them - *YOU* are the pack leader, they must listen to you. If you "put your foot down" too early they'll take forever to work things out. If you let it go too long then you're abdicating your role as alpha. How do you tell when it's too long - beats me ... When all else fails you have to just "explain to them" that this has to stop - solves nothing as they'll eventually have to work out their order in the pack. Neither of them is dumb (they're Huskies, right!) They may not like it, but the will put things into a truce if you object enough. (explain to them - continually reinforce that chaos in the house is not acceptable!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Melsom Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I don't have much except for something I read about packs will put misbehaving dogs in a time out somwhere where the dog can see everyone doing things he cant participate in. So apparently a person is suppose to tie up there dog in sight of things and put them in a "time out". I like Andys suggestion tho so GL O_O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Okay...so the best laid plans gone to waste... I had it figured that the toddler would be in her room before they came out to sort everything...then I went pee...*L* soooo that went out the window... So at this point it looks like they're not fighting over the house...but indeed that they're fighting over people. They started to go at it annnnnd we walked out of the room...they continued for a couple of seconds and then they both came to see what we were doing. Then...they started again...so we left the room again...they had a very noisy go of things for a few minutes and then noticed that we weren't in the room...so they came into the room we were in and started again. Oddly at this point I noticed that my livingroom carpet looked as if it hadn't been vacuumed in a year (Fox is blowing his coat). So I had one of the kids grab me the vacuum and my toddler and I (she really wanted to help) set about vacuming the livingroom floor. They stopped and both looked at me like I was insane...sometimes I wish I had CCTV in the house so I could get stills of facial expressions...anyway...back on subject/track...they actually waited until I was done vacuuming before they started having another go at each other...it looked rather vicious and as I said was rather loud...like shouting in the house to hear each other loud... Through all of this the previously psychopathic beagle has decided that she wants no part of trying to be in charge of two huskies...or she just doesn't mind Eponine that much. She hid under a table when all the loud started and we opened up her crate and let her chill out in there as things continued...I don't know if this will continue but we shall see. Right now they're going back and forth between laying down and testing one anothers boundaries...then they'll wrestle a bit...and go back to being loud crazy wierdos trying to figure out who fits where in the pecking order...when they start up when we're in the room we all simply leave...We're in this forever with our guys...and it's good to know that there is quiet on the horizon...even if it is the distant...distant horizon. Will continue to keep you all updated but THANK YOU so much for the advise and the reminder to stay calm through things...I think without it I probably would have prolonged things much MUCH longer than they needed to be... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 eeep posted in the wrong spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormchaser09 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 good to hear that the advise given seems to be working, Isn't this a great site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Yes...it's really fabulous!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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