Andy Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 Your instinct is to try to stop and separate them. But by leaving the room you remove the catalyst. Crazy, but it works. Glad you're making some positive progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian brown Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 I'd decided some time ago that we weren't going to have the dogs upstairs......the other part of it is that whenever Fox has gone upstairs he takes a huge dump in the middle of whatever room he's entered into... Whilst I type this Eponine is upstairs with my daughter and oldest son, and Fox is laying around in the livingroom...Tink is watching the neighborhood through the window and my toddler is sitting on my shoulders pulling my hair whilst proclaiming 'yah yah!! Galump galump!' 1, Fox dumping in rooms upstairs is to mark that as 'his', as such he's challenging your authority, not good. A case of 'look what I did, now what are you going to do about it?!" 2, allowing Eponine upstairs while Fox isn't, will cause even more jealousy Mishka tends to 'guard' me when she thinks there may be food around. She will block the kitchen door etc & snap at the others should they try & get near me. This has resulted in my 10yr old Collie & her fighting teeth bared etc. A swift "OI!!" soon stops them, they know I'm boss & I won't accept that behaviour (it doesn't stop them trying next time though lol). The behaviour is still present but I can see the warning signs, now I just tell them all to "move!". They then all lie in a semi-circle waiting for something lol (but at least not fighting) IMO, you walking out of a room if they start fighting is the wrong thing to do. You should remove the dogs from YOUR area & give them a time out. Have you got a child/dog safety gate so you can put them in another room behind the gate so they can see you but not get to you? My dogs (& all other dogs I've encountered) absolutely hate being excluded from what 'the pack' is doing. My g'friend (who had an elderly Boxer bitch at the time) & I fostered a young Boxer 'Bailey', for a friend because it was 'uncontrollable' & jumping on his youngest girl, scratching her with it's claws. It had guarding issues with toys, food etc & wasn't socialised. When she wouldn't play nicely & took all the toys, I put her in the kennel on her own (where she could see us) & continued playing with the others. Even when she was released, the other dogs would ignore her until she calmed down. Within a week, she was a completely different animal. She'd sit in-line waiting for her food or a little tit-bit. She knew, if she waited calmly like the others, then she'd get something, otherwise she'd be excluded & she didn't want that! 'Bailey' returned to her owners after 2 months a well socialized dog with much better manners & a 1000 times calmer. Even his family commented on how much she'd changed & how much nicer a dog she was. Be a pack leader & show them who's boss, they will sort the pecking order out between themselves but as it's 'you' they seem to be fighting over, remove them from 'you' & your territory. They'll soon learn that fighting leads to exclusion & they should stop. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted July 25, 2011 Report Share Posted July 25, 2011 eeep posted in the wrong spot Looks pretty much on topic to me ... From your last description (you walking out and they quiet down) I think you've hit it right on the head. Hope they don't destroy the house as they figure out it isn't working! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreyRust Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 "2, allowing Eponine upstairs while Fox isn't, will cause even more jealousy" a very good point. I don't have much expirience with these issues, never had to opporitunity. But letting them work things out seems like a good idea, and I would give what Brian said a try. Good to know she is getting along well with Tink! I was worried, since she never got along with our other small dogs. Though, I've never seen her to be "first strike" aggressive (to other dogs, its a whole-nother story with cats), she killed one of my moms chihuhua mixes, but the dog weighed about 9 pounds and wouldn't back off, this dog really thought she was huge, and HATED Eponine, was evening biting... so even a warning shot was lethal. Small dog syndrome is a big problem sometimes, and it would be a LOT more challenging if you had to deal with Tinkerbell being aggressive. So you should defiantly be grateful there! As for Fox and Eponine, I wouldn't be worried about them doing serious harm to each-other... since they are relatively the same size. I wish I could help more, keep us updated! Trey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #2 Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Shout at me if you like. . . :mad: Sometimes you have to let them go at it. They are obviously trying to sort out pack order. However they can't, because the "Damn Humans" keep interrupting. and. . . until they do get it sorted it may not get any better. We've fostered many dogs before we settled into our current pack. Whenever we brought a new foster dog in all hell would let loose for 24 hrs between at least two of them however by the next morning they had sorted it and each knew where they stood in the pack and they got on great. We've noticed that when we go out leaving them all together, there are NO FIGHTS. They only Kick off when WE are there. Whenever Echo and Darwin have a Spat, we LEAVE THE ROOM immediately. Echo feels she is protecting us from "something" Once we've left the room 10 seconds later it's all quiet. We come back in and they are both hiding curled up together under my computer desk coz they know they've been bad. Sometimes you have to do the exact opposite of what instinct is telling you. Phew !! that's my threppny bits worth. I agree...with all of it. You do have to let them work it out on their own, just be around enough to try to avoid blood shed....some blood may be drawan though. I kept a bottle of water spray around the first couple of months and when it got really bad, they got sprayed, both of them cause you can't tell who started it. Now they still (at almost a year together) go at it mean sometimes, but we ignore it and the faster we ignore it, the sooner it stops. Kind of like kids, if you walk away, they will follow....and Andy is much like Echo, he always is protecting or guarding us from Jack! Nice advice!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tan J P Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 aww poor Steph i bet you are wondering what you have let yourself in for! but it will ease up hun:) some great advice already been given and i sincerely hope they settle soon......so at least you still have some hair left that hasn't turned grey!! a lot of the time,i think the 'fights' look and sound an awful lot worse than they actually are. have you tried when you come in after a walk,getting them both to sit and giving a treat before and after you enter the house just wondered if this would take away the sudden urgency to fight,they may well focus on the fact that something scrummy was coming. good luck stay positive no doubt in a week or so we'll be seeing pics of them huddled together:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Angel n Auroras Mum Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 wow it would seem I have been very lucky with my two. We have never had a fight, play fighting but never a proper one. SOmetimes Angels hackles come up in a playfight and we stop the play when this happens. Im sorry you seem to be going through this Stephanie and I hope it gets better in time. xxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Morning update: It got pretty hot yesterday...we don't have a/c so we generally do a camp out in the livingroom (cuz its the coolest room in the house) when it gets to be unbearable at night...we ended the night with all three dogs splayed out in the livingroom...Fox on one end of the room, Eponine against the couch, and Tinkerbell crawling under blankets to get snuggles. All the dogs went to their crates at about eleven without complaint and zonked until a surprising 8am...It was such a stark contrast to how the day started out that I found myself totally exhausted feeling and ended up falling asleep shortly after our toddler rather than staying up late to take out the trash...consequently I missed trash day and am a bit butt hurt at myself over it....ah well dump run tomorrow. As for the upstairs...no, I'm not putting up children's gates to prevent entry to there. We have doors...two sets of doors to get to every exit and one of those accesses an exit and the stairs...small children are forgetful and particularly during the summer there are kids comming to the front door a great deal unless the kids are already outside playing, frequent reminders to close the door and not stand there with the front door open are still needed and I'm not willing to risk one of the dogs accidentally getting out when we have something in place that works. The dogs are all downstairs at this point...we did have a baby gate at one point to the kitchen but it certainly wasn't any match for the determination of a toddler... I wonder who they actually test baby gates on...certainly no child over the age of 18months. This morning they're wrestling monsters...we're establishing that it doesn't happen in the livingroom...but it's nothing like it was before when I was separating them constantly...just the level of intensity is so different and you can TELL that it's mostly playing. Again thank you all for your advise and suggestions...I really would have more than likely gone crazy without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Oh so good to hear!! (but not the trash part ... missing trash day, well, stinks) Fingers and paws crossed that the trend continues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutsibe Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Sorry to come to comment so late - you can hear a difference in the tone when they're testing/playing rough, and when they're seriously p.o.ed at each other! I have 3 kennel runs that have two dogs (male and female, generally, unless the girl is in/coming in season) in them, and occasionally, I'll come out and see that someone has a cut on their face (or ear!) from having had a spat, Usually it isn't too bad, and a little bit of peroxide takes care of it. Generally, the spats are over very quickly (when they're more serious), and they're usually because one of the males (at least with my guys) was being a total butt-head! Raf tends to want to lord it over his sister, Jazz, Strider wants to play all the time, and Zeke - well, Zeke is a 1 year old teenager! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tan J P Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 @sutsibe i do believe you almost had a swear word in there....well nearly almost,well abrieviated!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miracle Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 If they were fighting over you, that's not a good indication of your position in the household. It seems that they may have worked it out, though. At least for the most part. And props to you for walking them together regularly. That's the absolute best thing you can do for them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutsibe Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 @sutsibe i do believe you almost had a swear word in there....well nearly almost,well abrieviated!!! Oh, there are times when furries (or occasionally other things in life!) cause me to say things I really shouldn't, lol! Any way, while something like "p.o.ed" may be a bit crude and rude, not sure that I'd really consider it 'swearing'! If they were fighting over you, that's not a good indication of your position in the household. It seems that they may have worked it out, though. At least for the most part. And props to you for walking them together regularly. That's the absolute best thing you can do for them! I don't entirely agree with this assessment. My guys view me as their pack leader, but will argue with each other for my attention - and will occasionally push me to see if I'm willing to let them get away with something! It doesn't mean they think they're above me in the pack, just that they'd like to see if I'm willing to abdicate to them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miracle Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Fighting over attention and fighting over you are the same thing. A dog that fights over it's owner is being possessive of it's owner, basically identical to resource guarding. Your attention is the resource. If the dog sees you as a resource, then you are not the pack leader. Haha. I'm not saying that's the case here, or even with you. I don't know enough about either situation. But I do know that in most cases, dogs who are jealous and/or possessive over their owners are generally not recognizing their owners as leaders. This is the same idea as a dog that appears to be "protecting" it's owner. In actuality, if the owner were the pack leader, the dog would not be protective. It is the pack leader that does the protecting - not the subordinate. Once again, not saying that is necessarily the case here, though. Some dogs just don't get along! Haha. I know I can attest to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutsibe Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Fighting over attention and fighting over you are the same thing. A dog that fights over it's owner is being possessive of it's owner, basically identical to resource guarding. Your attention is the resource. If the dog sees you as a resource, then you are not the pack leader. Haha. I'm not saying that's the case here, or even with you. I don't know enough about either situation. But I do know that in most cases, dogs who are jealous and/or possessive over their owners are generally not recognizing their owners as leaders. This is the same idea as a dog that appears to be "protecting" it's owner. In actuality, if the owner were the pack leader, the dog would not be protective. It is the pack leader that does the protecting - not the subordinate. Once again, not saying that is necessarily the case here, though. Some dogs just don't get along! Haha. I know I can attest to that. Guess we'll just agree to disagree, then. It's my opinion that with dogs as with people, things are rarely so cut and dried! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Morning update: This morning they're wrestling monsters.....just the level of intensity is so different and you can TELL that it's mostly playing. Again thank you all for your advise and suggestions...I really would have more than likely gone crazy without it. Ahhh, this is good. Playfighting shows they are now bonding and challenging each other in a more social way. Rather than in an aggressive way. This is good news. You may still have full on spats, but there will be less of them as time goes by. In one of my previous posts in this thread I mentioned when we fostered and introduced a new dog, we had 24 hours of hell. Then by the next morning, best friends and playing. Sounds like you're having a similar reaction. So pleased for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miracle Posted July 26, 2011 Report Share Posted July 26, 2011 Guess we'll just agree to disagree, then. It's my opinion that with dogs as with people, things are rarely so cut and dried! No, it's definitely not cut and dry. Which is why I'm saying it may not be the case here. Some dogs who resource guard are simply doing it out of insecurity. It's just one possibility amongst hundreds. They may not even be fighting over her! Haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #1 Posted July 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Evening update: We had a busy day...lake, walks, etc...They're getting that I don't mind if they wrestle...they just can't wrestle in the livingroom...it takes a very loud rawr and pointing them to the nearly empty music room but they'll go in there for it...which is certainly helpful in the grand scheme of things... Tinkerbell has started baying at them when they get too loud or rowdy...they ignore her for the most part...but both of them wrestled with her very...very gently this evening...and then went all out with the wrestling with each other...they've started their wrestling in the livingroom a few times...but the loud rawr out...and pointing to the music room where there's not so much for them to damage seems to be working...a loud noise...then 'out' whilst pointing to where they can play (the music room). As for all out fights...at this point it's just looking like very very loud posturing to see whose going to back down first...on an up note...Eponine is eating well, she's sooo energetic on her walks...and the walks with all three dogs went well today...even with the distraction of rabbits, children, bicyclists, and random people walking around. We did go a bit earlier in the evening tonight than we did last night...and we went a diferent route...but as of right now all three dogs are chilling out on the livingroom floor whilst the family watches movies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreyRust Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Good to hear they are doing well! She's really an amazing dog, do post pics now that things are getting sorted out, when you have time of course! Trey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cathy Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Sooooooooooooo happy!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
26nikita Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Ditto on the pics!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttilaVikingsDemon Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 Very happy!! Hope to get to meet you and your clan at the Iowa meet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules dief taz tor Posted July 27, 2011 Report Share Posted July 27, 2011 thats brilliant news , well done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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