PETA Slams Mario over use of a fur suit....

[Ravenwolf]

I don't deny that PETA has made great leaps in drawing attention to animal cruelty. But it's their over-the-top, unrealistic fanaticism that damages their own credibility. They are the shock rockers of activist world. Any attention is good attention. Even negative attention. Especially negative attention.

I, for one, am grateful for their undercover operations that show how some places cruelly treat their animals despite laws against them, which are overly lax to begin with and in severe need of change. Spay and neuter campaigns are admirable. Fur farms are unnecessary and the height of cruelty. But I disagree with their extremism in a big way, and think they waste far too much time and money on the war when they should instead focus on specific battles. It seems to me that they spread themselves too thin and waste far too many resources on stupid publicity stunts like the Mario one. I disagree with them protesting the seal hunt during the Olympics. I was horrified that they would have the audacity to exploit the gruesome murder of Tim Mclean in 2008 (he was decapitated and cannibalized) to promote their cause. It was the epitome of hubris, and flying his death as a totally unrelated banner for cattle slaughter is nothing short of the worst kind of cruelty to the man's friends and family.

On a personal note, a good friend of one of my university professors did behavioural animal research. He and his coworkers and students loved their animals - they were not cut up or abused but subject to behavioural studies (think mouse in the maze kind of thing). PETA extremists broke into the lab, destroyed the place and stole all the animals. They were later caught and confessed. I forget what happened to the other animals, but it was the middle of winter and they took all the rabbits and "set them free." I guess they thought rabbits don't need to learn how to survive in the "wild." One of the extremists gave up the location where they released the rabbits and scientist went out to see if he could find them. They found all of them. They died of exposure in the same field they were released in.

I don't like PETA because they don't discriminate. They will tar and feather responsible and humane people with the same brush as those whom they film gleefully committing atrocious acts of cruelty. Hunting for meat and waiting for a clean shot is just as disgusting as trophy hunting and riddling a creature with bullets to kill it. Wild animal stewardship and culling for the health of wild populations is tantamount to genocide while "Starvation and disease are unfortunate, but they are nature's way of ensuring that the strong survive."

The founder herself stated that ultimately no animals should be kept as pets. I guess we're to let domestic dogs, cats, horses, etc go extinct to avoid "This selfish desire to possess animals and receive love from them [that] causes immeasurable suffering, which results from manipulating their breeding, selling or giving them away casually, and depriving them of the opportunity to engage in their natural behavior. They are restricted to human homes, where they must obey commands and can only eat, drink, and even urinate when humans allow them to." All humans should be vegan. All clothing should be synthetic or plant-based. They're so far to the left that they do get criticized as being hemp-wearing crazy hippies, but when you're jumping around naked and waving your junk at passersby no one really cares what message you're trying to get across -because you're crazy. And no one listens to crazy people. Crazy people cut off other people's heads and feast on their flesh.

So yeah, using a kid's video game character in an animal suit as the venue to promote fur harvesting in China is ridiculous and self-defeating. I remember when the tanooki suit first appeared in 1988 and I sure don't remember wanting to wear a fur coat or thinking it's okay because of it. In fact, I have less of an issue with certain types of fur now than I did then. But kids don't see the tanooki suit and think fur coat. They think mascot or hallowe'en costume. I've watched the horrific videos that PETA has showing the brutal cruelty of the animal trade. It's a worthy cause, but it should be fought for in a way that doesn't dismiss them as crazy fools willing to step on anyone and anything to get into the spotlight.

All quotes are directly from PETA.org.

[Willow]

Looks like PETA is in need of a life (**gasp** big surprise there). Attacking the Mario video game because he wears a fur voat which kids don't even pay attention to? Really? Come on now, don't they have something better to do?

Oh wait, it's PETA.

They will do anything in the form of advertisement that makes them money. Here's a post on my blog with some "evidence" of just that. blog

[Willow]

Explains everything, everything that I thought was pretty self explanatory. People only believe what they want to believe, most people already have their own opinion on PETA so they filter everything they read about them. There are two sides to every story, however, news and the media tend to only show one, the negative. Media twists things in order to get the reaction that they want from people, it's disgusting. Then you have all these uneducated people taking up sides after reading one biased article or over hearing something. It's annoying.

As for the insulin matter, that's one person that works for the organization. You can't judge a company on one individual within a company, but if that is your logic, I'm sure that every company on the face of the planet would be corrupt.

Do you know how PETA came to be founded? It's usually the most twisted piece of PETA information out there. The founder took in some abandoned kittens to a shelter because she was scared for their well being, she thought that they'd all get adopted out. They killed the kitties immediately after she dropped them off. A few days later she went to check up on them and they said that they had taken care of them all after she dropped them off. Pretty upset she wanted to find out why so she got a job there. What did she discover? The workers would carry out the most inhumane ways of "putting down" the animals, stomping, beating to death, whatever they wanted. So she would come to work every morning early so she could put all the animals down humanely before anyone arrived at work.

All you hear from people that know nothing of it is that "She loves killing animals." No, no she does not, that's why she founded PETA. She said that she put down thousands of animals while working there and every day she cried. Someone that can put down that many animals and still cry after doing so cannot be evil, there's no way. Yes, they are truely a terrible and corrupt company. I will stand behind them, they believe in equality of animals, no animal's life should be worth any more than another's. That's the way it should be and always will be. They've converted hundreds of thousands of people. Yes, they have controversial ways of marketing but when you are battling something that is legal in the land that the evil doing is happening, what can you do? You can't do anything! Awareness is all you can do and they do a wonderful job of it!

http://www.peta.org/mediacenter/ads/Print-Ads-Skins.aspx is their other advertisement that had people all flared up over. What is the big deal? These celebrities volunteered and WANTED to have themselves done up on an ad. I personally think that it's a really clever idea, and it's a great message. I hear a lot of women, feminists, saying that it's sexist. I find it sexist that they even consider is sexist because they are basically saying that they are not allowed to use their body how they want to. On top of it all, it's not just WOMEN! That's usually what comes to mind, "Ooooh all those nude women celebs, PETA is so sexist."

I'm just tired of uneducated people speaking on the matter, at least do some research first to say that you know a little about what is going on. It's upsetting for us that actually know what is going on and the good that they are doing. If the golden girls are behind them, there's no way they're evil, ha.

Call me evil, I side with PETA. This seems like a PETA hate board, seems like every post I see about this game is just a bunch of people hating on them. They are a good company with great beliefs but they do controversial stuff which is only to get attention. I don't see why people can't see that.

What about this? I don't think they made something like this up. PETA does not believe that animals should be pets and that killing them is more "humane" than letting them live in loving homes. Take a look at the blog link I posted above. Makes me second guess what their sole purpose is...

I'm not trying to be mean but any group of people who tries to force their opinions and views on others is not going to sit well with me. Sure, I'm all for treating animals right but when you start telling people that they should die because they eat eggs and that they are horrible human beings because they race sled dogs, I find it hard to see the good.

[Laine]

Okay, here's my take on PETA and why I dislike them; also realize this is opinion only.

I don't like PETA for their extremism, as others have mentioned, and for their lack of actual thinking about what they're doing. Do I deny they do some good; no, they have done good before. But when they take animals out of a captured situation and free them, they are in essence killing those animals as they as a general rule don't have the ability to survive on their own (like the story above about the rabbits).

I also dislike their undercover stuff. While it's great that they've uncovered all this stuff about animal abuse on farms or what-not, my biggest thing has always been "And what did they do after that?" Meaning did they step up to authorities to say "This is wrong" BEFORE putting their "shocking" video up on the PETA site to be used? Or did they carry on with their UC deal until it was over, go back to the organization to edit the film and then shove it online so they can prove all the horrors of whatever place they were at, bypassing the agencies that are supposed to look after this stuff? To me, PETA is no less intent on shock value as say paparazzi; they'll do anything for that one shot to make them even more famous (or infamous).

This isn't to say I don't want to see animals treated humanely. I do; I hate that there is horrible conditions for animals on farms still in this day and age, that they're killed brutally and without any conscience what so ever. I hate that in some places the animals are so cramped they can't move, or are in such a small space they can't even lie down. I hate that not all parts of the animal are used when at one time for us it was important that all parts were used. But I also hate how PETA goes about bringing awareness to these issues and how they, themselves, deal with it. They have an agenda and damn anyone else who interferes with that agenda. The worst phrase ever can be applied to them; "If you're not with us, you're against us."

This protest or whatever it is that PETA has about Mario is just another step into the realm of Insane that PETA is quickly and with absolute glee throwing themselves at. The more they act like this, the less people will care about them or their cause. The sooner they realize it, the better it'll be for them, and for the very animals they're trying to save.

[Removed #1]

*Huge heavy sigh* Did anyone even read the link I posted??!

I quote from the site:

"Tanooki may be just a "suit" in Mario games, but in real life, tanuki are raccoon dogs who are skinned alive for their fur. By wearing Tanooki, Mario is sending the message that it's OK to wear fur. Play Super Tanooki Skin 2D and help Tanooki reclaim his fur!"

Yes. I read it...and realistically if you draw your life lessons and your dos and don'ts from video games featuring animals that most children can't identify outside of 'it looks like a racoon' then your parents are seriously failing you and the focus should perhaps be there rather than on the morality of wearing fur.

And here's a little insight to those who are not clever enough to look past the game

http://kotaku.com/5860212/peta-that-whole-bloody-mario-thing-that-was-just-a-joke

Explains everything, everything that I thought was pretty self explanatory. People only believe what they want to believe, most people already have their own opinion on PETA so they filter everything they read about them. There are two sides to every story, however, news and the media tend to only show one, the negative. Media twists things in order to get the reaction that they want from people, it's disgusting. Then you have all these uneducated people taking up sides after reading one biased article or over hearing something. It's annoying.

Also read this site...and the general it was a joke meant to bring attention to a more serious issue statement is shallow at best. I think that it's hard to have something that you're trying to point out as being an important issue to be taken seriously when you decide to use comedy as the medium you deliver with...

As far as biased...ummm yeah most of what they put out is fairly one sided.

As for the insulin matter, that's one person that works for the organization. You can't judge a company on one individual within a company, but if that is your logic, I'm sure that every company on the face of the planet would be corrupt.

You can actually judge based upon whatever life experience you've had that creates biased opinions and such. As people we learn from our mistakes and sometimes the mistakes of others...It's what we do...you do it, I do it...everyone does it, otherwise there wouldn't be any environmental learning (not talking planet here) taking place at all and we as human beings wouldn't evolve at all.

In this instance, I think the red flag is perhaps that its someone whose been put up BY the organization/company to represent them and their views expressing such an opinion as to who ought to benefit from medication and who ought not to.

...but they do controversial stuff which is only to get attention. I don't see why people can't see that.

Maybe that is the problem? I'm tired of people doing outlandish or offensive things and expecting it to be excused just because it was meant to bring attention to an issue...it starts to walk that same line as people faking hate crimes to draw attention to the issue of racisim...How much of an issue is something if you have to fake it, manipulate data, etc.

I think at this point in time I'm going to have to leave you to your opinion and I'll keep mine. I enjoy meat...I enjoy the benefits of modern medicine (not going to start with the incidents of gastrointestinal issues among veggies vs. omnivore human types), I will never place the health and well being of my children behind that of an animal...including my beloved furbabies. Animals understand the food chain or they die of starvation...why can't we?

Ahhh well...the mario game...eh cute. The Mama game...mildly amusing.

[Elyse]

*Huge heavy sigh* Did anyone even read the link I posted??!

I quote from the site:

"Tanooki may be just a "suit" in Mario games, but in real life, tanuki are raccoon dogs who are skinned alive for their fur. By wearing Tanooki, Mario is sending the message that it's OK to wear fur. Play Super Tanooki Skin 2D and help Tanooki reclaim his fur!"

And here's a little insight to those who are not clever enough to look past the game

http://kotaku.com/5860212/peta-that-whole-bloody-mario-thing-that-was-just-a-joke

Explains everything, everything that I thought was pretty self explanatory. People only believe what they want to believe, most people already have their own opinion on PETA so they filter everything they read about them. There are two sides to every story, however, news and the media tend to only show one, the negative. Media twists things in order to get the reaction that they want from people, it's disgusting. Then you have all these uneducated people taking up sides after reading one biased article or over hearing something. It's annoying.

As for the insulin matter, that's one person that works for the organization. You can't judge a company on one individual within a company, but if that is your logic, I'm sure that every company on the face of the planet would be corrupt.

Do you know how PETA came to be founded? It's usually the most twisted piece of PETA information out there. The founder took in some abandoned kittens to a shelter because she was scared for their well being, she thought that they'd all get adopted out. They killed the kitties immediately after she dropped them off. A few days later she went to check up on them and they said that they had taken care of them all after she dropped them off. Pretty upset she wanted to find out why so she got a job there. What did she discover? The workers would carry out the most inhumane ways of "putting down" the animals, stomping, beating to death, whatever they wanted. So she would come to work every morning early so she could put all the animals down humanely before anyone arrived at work.

All you hear from people that know nothing of it is that "She loves killing animals." No, no she does not, that's why she founded PETA. She said that she put down thousands of animals while working there and every day she cried. Someone that can put down that many animals and still cry after doing so cannot be evil, there's no way. Yes, they are truely a terrible and corrupt company. I will stand behind them, they believe in equality of animals, no animal's life should be worth any more than another's. That's the way it should be and always will be. They've converted hundreds of thousands of people. Yes, they have controversial ways of marketing but when you are battling something that is legal in the land that the evil doing is happening, what can you do? You can't do anything! Awareness is all you can do and they do a wonderful job of it!

http://www.peta.org/mediacenter/ads/Print-Ads-Skins.aspx is their other advertisement that had people all flared up over. What is the big deal? These celebrities volunteered and WANTED to have themselves done up on an ad. I personally think that it's a really clever idea, and it's a great message. I hear a lot of women, feminists, saying that it's sexist. I find it sexist that they even consider is sexist because they are basically saying that they are not allowed to use their body how they want to. On top of it all, it's not just WOMEN! That's usually what comes to mind, "Ooooh all those nude women celebs, PETA is so sexist."

I'm just tired of uneducated people speaking on the matter, at least do some research first to say that you know a little about what is going on. It's upsetting for us that actually know what is going on and the good that they are doing. If the golden girls are behind them, there's no way they're evil, ha.

Call me evil, I side with PETA. This seems like a PETA hate board, seems like every post I see about this game is just a bunch of people hating on them. They are a good company with great beliefs but they do controversial stuff which is only to get attention. I don't see why people can't see that.

Good points.

I agree with what PETA stands for, but its just the way they present the subject matter I find stupid...especially insulting a classic game character like Mario where a lot of people have fond memories of him as a child.

[Michelle Melsom]

*Slams face against the wall* Impossible to carry on a debate when people look completely past your post. Just disregard everything I just said... Seems like that's all everyone does when the facts come in.

That was a joke to kick off their main campaign against fur farms!!

Does anyone watch Robot Chicken? They had a segment on if Mario Brothers was real and it was WAY worst than that game EVER was and people found it HILARIOUS! If Robot Chicken would have made a funny animation about this people would have laughed. Add PETA to the works and people flip poo! It's silly.

http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-clothing/animals-used-for-fur.aspx

All the animals that are being used for fur coats. Yes, dogs and cats are even among them.

I LOVE ROBOT CHICKENNN

[James]

<---------------------------------------------------- My reaction!

This is just plain stupid! Its crap like this that will actually make people not listen to PETA because they are acting like Morons, and no one with a brain cell accepts advice from Morons!

Also I heard that PETA were creating a PORN website to raise awareness! WTF! o_O

[Michelle Melsom]

<---------------------------------------------------- My reaction!

This is just plain stupid! Its crap like this that will actually make people not listen to PETA because they are acting like Morons, and no one with a brain cell accepts advice from Morons!

Also I heard that PETA were creating a PORN website to raise awareness! WTF!

Lol I just made that face when I read the porn part

[James]

Lol I just made that face when I read the porn part

http://news.yahoo.com/peta-plans-porn-website-promote-message-171544732.html

there you go!

[Michelle Melsom]

http://news.yahoo.com/peta-plans-porn-website-promote-message-171544732.html

there you go!

HAHAHA:clap:

[Paranormal Wolf]

Once again don't even get me stared on PETA ...

[Darc-Brittany]

I don't agree with everything they do, they do a lot of stuff that they probably shouldn't but that's how they get attention. Getting attention in their eyes in better than no attention at all and that couldn't be more true. If they were to have posted their raccoon dog video at the bottom of their website, how many people would have actually noticed? Not many, maybe a few hundred or thousands that follow them and visit their site regularly. But with releasing something controversial that everyone can relate to, they got the media attention that they wanted. I'm just sad that the real issue at hand is being ignored. I thought that the idea about Mario was a little clever myself, not in the way that Mario had tore off his fur and worn it, but that they even bothered to point it out. No kid is going to relate De-furring an animal to Mario and that's wherein their joke lies. I wasn't offended by it at all, but some people, apparently a lot, get offended pretty easily these days.

As for the porn website, it's their choice. Does that mean that I will go on it? No, probably not. It's there, if you want to go on it. If you don't, then so what? It's not like they are forcing you to go to their site to watch it. In the article they said that it will also feature ads, I'm assuming that those are the ads that I already listed the link to earlier. I thought the ads were really well done and portrayed an awesome message.

http://www.peta.org/about/learn-about-peta/financial-report.aspx This was their budget break down for 2010. Some people tend to think that they blow all their money on advertising and none on helping out the animals at all. They do spend a lot on advertising, I'll admit that, but how can you fight something when no one is actually aware of what is going on? I'll use Shark Water as an example. I love sharks, why? Because I'm TERRIFIED of them. The largest great white caught on record was off the tip of Alberton, PEI, the island I live on in 1981 (I do believe). So I heard of this movie, Shark Water, I had no clue what it was about but it had sharks in it so I wanted to watch it. It's about illegal shark fining and how all the sharks are disappearing at an alarming rate. Was that an eye opener for me, I didn't have a clue about shark fining. Disgusting, I love how humans ruin everything good and healthy about the world we live in. Media is a great way to bring awareness, that's my point. Do I agree with all the ways PETA uses the media? No, absolutely not, but I can look past it all and usually see where they're coming from. Sometimes they do go over the top but a lot of it is humor, I guess a lot of people don't understand or like their way of carrying it out, and that's perfectly fine, everyone in entitled to their opinion and where they choose to side. But from those figures they do spend a lot on research and trying to help animals. They lobby the government to try and get stricter laws laid down. If you think that they do extreme things to get more money for themselves, I have to laugh at that, it shows the salary at the bottom of that article of the founder of PETA, 40k isn't very much. Lets look at it in comparison to WWF CEO Carter S. Roberts President, he earns a WHOPPING $465,427 a year. To put that into even better perspective, that's MORE than the President of the United States makes! I think that WWF could focus a little more of their members salary into helping wildlife... Who honestly need over 400k a year to live?! It's ridiculous. It's clear to me that most PETA's money they receive goes right back to the animals.

If you don't think that PETA has done some good, I'm sorry, but that's almost as insane as some of their attacks. http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/616723 In Europe seal pelts have been banned because of the attention that PETA has brought forth, the States are even disgusted and putting limits and restrictions on them. Being a Canadian I am not proud of the seal hunt and I'm glad that PETA is making it somewhere with reducing the hunt.

As for the article PETA kills animals, it's true, they are like any other shelter that euthanizes animals when they cannot find a home for them. They don't kill them instantly like some shelters that are over stocked. http://www.peta.org/issues/Companion-Animals/euthanasia-the-compassionate-option.aspx is their view on euthanizing. I like that they focus on a humane way of putting them to sleep where as some shelters don't care and use any means necessary to kill the animal. Have you bothered to look up what kind of animals they take it though? The article you linked was biased, anything with a title like that is one sided. These paragraphs are taken right from their wiki page.

"PETA opposes the no kill movement, and euthanizes an estimated 85% of the animals it takes in.[7] The group takes in feral cat colonies with diseases such as feline AIDS and leukemia, stray dogs, litters of parvo-infected puppies, and backyard dogs, and says that it would be unrealistic to follow a no-kill policy in such instances.[81] They offer free euthanasia services to counties that kill unwanted animals via gassing or shootingâ€â€they recommend the use of an intravenous injection of sodium pentobarbital if administered by a trained professional, and for severely ill or dying pets when euthanasia at a veterinarian is unaffordable.[82] They recommend euthanasia for certain breeds, such as pit bull terriers, and in certain situations for animals in shelters: for example, for those living for long periods in cramped cages.[83]

Two PETA employees were acquitted in 2007 of animal cruelty after at least 80 euthanized animals were left in dumpsters in a shopping center in Ashoskie over the course of a month in 2005; the two employees were seen leaving behind 18 dead animals, and 13 more were found inside their van. The animals had been euthanized after being removed from shelters in Northampton and Bertie counties.[84][85] The group said it began euthanizing animals in some rural North Carolina shelters after it found the shelters killing animals in ways PETA considered inhumane.[86]"

It's not as if they are killing off perfectly healthy animals, they try to help those that are in need and suffering. No one wants to see an animal suffer. I'm not saying that it's possible that some healthy ones get put down in the process, but how is it any different than a shelter? Shelters put down an estimated 3-4 million pets a year, that's a lot. You have irresponsible owners to blame for a lot of it. I believe a strict pet owning system needs to be put in place. A registry system for every person that owns an animal. You have an animal and get rid of it for any reason, you shouldn't be allowed another animal, blacklisted. Same for any kind of abuse and what not. Limit the animals one are allowed. Stricter laws for people breeding (I don't understand a whole lot about breeding, please do not get mad at me if I offended someone, was not my intention). From my understanding you have inspections to have to pass in some places but other provinces/States are a little less concerned on the matter. Please, correct me if I am wrong. But realistically speaking, how much money would it cost to create a registry system and keep it up to date? Way too much money, people power, and time.

Going back to PETA killing an alarming percent of their animals. Another quote from a website I will list below "PETA's small sheltering program takes in any animals who need helpâ€â€even those who are aggressive, horribly injured, or terminally ill." Can you see why they put down a lot of the animals they receive now?

http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archive/tags/no kill shelters/default.aspx

Link is why "no-kill" shelters don't work. Funny that everyone points out that they kill a lot of animals. I was reading an article and one of PETA's members managed a no-kill shelter for a while but had to stop because it was heart wrenching. Huzzah, I found the article! Read it, it's pretty moving. http://www.peta.org/about/why-peta/no-kill-shelters.aspx

As for the rabbit situation, that sounds incredibly stupid. I haven't heard of that one before, but I do not know everything so I will have to look it up later and see what that is all about. I like to inform myself before making comments on something I do not know I hope for their sake that there was more to it, if not, wow, that was a stupid move on their part.

As for the Tofurky, that's hilarious. I'm sorry, I read that and me and my boyfriend burst out laughing. That's their style. Do you honestly think that they were being serious? They weren't, they troll people, that's how they get attention. Some people like that humor and apparently a lot of people hate it.

Holy Moley this is a long post. Like I said, they do a lot of good and a lot of stupid things, and some things that I do not agree with. I believe people should be able to have a few pet companions or there be professional musher with big teams (all the ones you see from the Iditarod seem to care more about their dogs then themselves), that goes for any professional sport involving any kind of animal. I'd like to see fur-farms disappear or at least carry the deaths in a more humane way. I'd like to see more healthy live-stock caring farms. I personally would like to be a vegan, I tried for six months I don't know if it was my pills getting to me or lack of protein in my diet, but I turned into the biggest super butt hole of all time.

Overall, I just wish more people were aware of the wrong doings in this world, PETA tries to show people... Not in the best ways, mind you. They are of a noble cause and I hope they keep up the great job that they are doing.

And for the record, I am really enjoying this debate now that informed people are actually responding with valid points. I don't like hear say especially when someone hasn't looked at both sides or even bothered looking into anything on the matter at hand. The last two debates over this was on facebook and it was two friends that ended up just wanting to rant about them. I should have never joined because there were no civilized people intelligent enough to look at numbers or sites and point out any facts. There was a lot of numbers being thrown around, all of which leading into me searching and reading into turned out to be pulled out of thin air.

ANYWAYS! I'm done for this post, spent WAAAAY too much time writing this. Sorry if there are any mistakes, I don't have the energy to proof through it right now. On top of which I promised my two doggies that I would run them and they are getting pretty anxious so I'm gonna log off and hop on my pawtrekker <3

Kudos to anyone who reads through this entire post, you deserve a HUGE chocolate cake, too bad you weren't closer to me, I got a bunch of donuts from Tims sitting on the kitchen table I would have been glad to share.

[Ravenwolf]

http://news.yahoo.com/peta-plans-porn-website-promote-message-171544732.html

there you go!

LMAO. Wow, they are even farther off the reservation that I thought if they think that people are going to watch porn to derive a message out of it! People watch porn for one purpose, and one purpose only - and nobody wants that purpose to be sullied with morality!

[Ravenwolf]

Darc-Brittany - I think I love you. This was probably the most rational argument for PETA I have ever read, and it's so refreshing to have an even-keeled debate on both sides. *super satisfied sigh*

I ultimately went way off topic in my research after reading your post, because I was alarmed at how much Carter Roberts made and had to go verify it. WWF makes no apologies for his income, and posts it publicly for the world to see. I have been a proud supporter of WWF for over 6 years, and this was almost enough for me to call and cancel my monthly donations. If Roberts is making that much money a month they certainly don't need my paltry 20$/month to make ends meet.

However, once you look deeper into the issue, while it still galls me to the core it is understandable why an organization that averages nearly $200 million a year would need someone at the helm who is supremely competent, knowledgeable in strategic planning and budgeting, and wrangling a company with offices in 80 countries. There are only about 2500 full-time staff members, but scads more part-time, term and volunteer. When a company is that big, you aren't going to get someone dedicating their life to running the show out of the goodness of their heart - you have to pay them competitively or the competition will outbid you. In fact, I would hazard a guess that Roberts could get more from any number of other companies, and if he stays with WWF it is likely because he believes in the cause.

Here is the Charity Navigator's report on why non-profit CEOs get paid so much. It's a very interesting read, and utterly shocking. When you start looking at the amount executives make (for example: CEO of New York Philharmonic has a base salary of 850,00$ and over $1.8 MILLION in other compensation), suddenly Roberts' income is not only par for the course, but pretty damned reasonable when compared to other, smaller non-profit organizations.

http://www.charitynavigator.org/__asset__/studies/2010_CEO_Compensation_Study_Revised_Final.pdf

So it turns out Ingrid is pretty much alone on her meager salary acceptance. Noble, to be sure, but keep in mind that she is not an educated business person with vast experience in socio-economics like the majority of CEOs. They do, however, pay for experience - PETA's highest paid employee is their head veterinarian at 111,000$/year, which is a fair amount more than the US average of less than 75,000$/year (which genuinely surprised me - I thought vets made way more than that!).

Compared to PETA's annual 2009 net of $34.5 million, and you've got pretty well equal percentages of income to salary for both. WWF and PETA use approximately 4% of their revenue for administrative costs - bigger organization, bigger 4%.

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/environment/world-wildlife-fund-in-washington-dc-2988

http://www.bbb.org/charity-reviews/national/animal-protection/people-for-the-ethical-treatment-of-animals-in-norfolk-va-1160

I support WWF because they openly support hunting and sustainable use of wild space. I don't want the unspoiled expanses of the wilderness to be off-limits to humans - I want to be able to enjoy it. My family and my husband's family have all hunted - and with my husband's family especially it's a huge part of their identity. I just bought my first rifle this year, and next year I'll actually be personally hunting for the first time (for something larger than gophers and pigeons, anyway), though I've always taken part in preparing the carcass.

I have no problem with killing animals. I have no problem with forming a partnership with animals. I look at my cat, curled up in his favourite place in front of a furnace vent, and wonder if he truly resent being forced to pee in a litter box instead of where he pleases. I think it's a fair trade.

My problem is with the inhumane killing of animals and the ignorance of modern society. I know where my meat comes from. I know how it died. I recognize the sacrifice of that life to sustain mine. Unnecessary in a modern world, but it still has it's place. In the absence of other apex predators that we have ousted from much of their territory, we are now responsible for the management of the balance. A quick, clean kill in a slaughterhouse is acceptable, and I am glad that there are watchdog organizations like PETA to try to keep them in check. But in North America anyway, the laws are in place, it's the enforcing of them that needs to be dealt with. Smart companies remove the psychotics from their kill floors because they don't want suffering animals. Frightened, suffering animals generate bad tasting meat.

The slaughter will not end. That is an unrealistic ideal. Controlling it is the key to success. The removal of horse slaughterhouses in the US was devastating to the horse industry. Incidents of neglect and abandonment rose sharply in the States, and thousands of horses are shipped greater distances to Canada for slaughter, or, more tragically, Mexico, where humane enforcement is even more minimal.

Here's an example of someone who is actually making a difference in animal welfare for animals in slaughterhouses. Temple Grandin is a high-functioning autistic who still got her doctorate had works to ensure humane kill methods and holding/moving practices for livestock. She is a fucking champion!

Here is a video of her lecturing on how to use electric stunners humanely (some graphic content).

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When you get to 8:10 she starts talking about kicking reflex and the difference between an insensible pig and active kicking.

About her, in a wiki-nutshell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

And on a side note, I was part of a team in university that generated a research proposal for the validity of the seal hunt in Canada. All of us expected to come back with the vantage that the hunt was not feasible and should be stopped, but surprisingly, to a one we ended up with a report promoting the hunt and actively encouraging government support. That debate could start to go off topic, but in the end, the main reasons I see for being against the seal hunt are 1) they're so damned cute, 2) the blood looks horrific on pristine snow, 3) nervous system thrashing reflex is misconstrued as suffering. I can understand and accept someone wanting to end seal slaughter because they're against killing period, but most protesters have done absolutely no research and have no idea what they're talking about. The seal hunt is cruel, but they will go home and enjoy a steak. Even in Regina we had the PETA protesters out, calling it "our Olympic shame," complete with a bit inflatable seal. Seal bludgeoning isn't an Olympic sport. It's another example of them piggy-backing unrelated topics to gain media coverage. Sure, a few people might jump on the bandwagon, but many who might otherwise give them a listen turned away in disgust. I was actually so sick of it I wrote to the opinion column of our local paper, which published my letter, and I actually had our Deputy Minister come down and high five me for it.

Just for comparison, this video shows some examples of 2 well-run and clean-killing slaughterhouses - a chicken and a cattle one. I wasn't a fan of watching the guys unloading the chickens into the crates and closing the crates so hard, but while there was no gentle, caring hand, there was no malice either, and he did push them back in when he noticed them too high. The chicken one shows an operator manually killing any chickens who aren't killed instantly; the flapping and twitching down the line is all post-mortem, as can be told by anyone who either does the research or has first-hand knowledge of what death looks like. The cattle one shows 2 examples of clean kills and a well-trained, patient knacker. This is the kind of standards our slaughterhouse industries should be held to. Death is never pretty, but it can be humane.

5BENEZH-C7s

[Darc-Brittany]

Sorry that I just disappeared from this topic, been meaning to reply but I got caught up with Zelda's new release Skyward Sword. Now that I finally beat the game, I can spend some time doing a reply, ha. Told you I was a gamer

I think I'm in love with you too! Anyone I've ever tried to debate this topic over has had no logical stand. They spew hear say or statistics from anti-PETA sites. There's two sides to every story, you have to look at the source and what the other side is saying. From there choose for yourself, do not let biases articles decide for you, you were born with a brain, use it. Feels nice to actually be able to have a civilized discussion with someone.

As for their "porn" site. I looked it up and did some research, there's not a lot of info released on it yet but it is suppose to be launched next month (if it is a go by then). No where did I hear from PETA that it was going to be a porn channel. It sounded like they were going to be having people nude, that does not make it porn, sorry. It's art, look at all the ancient famous works of art, a lot of them picture the human body, dare I say, naked. Channel will also be featuring ads from what I read, I'm assuming those are the ads I posted earlier. These ads are clever, I like them, "Be comfortable in your own skin." It's an awesome idea, but that's just my opinion. If I had a nice body, I'd like to help out the cause, but media these days has made a lot of women and men so insecure about their own looks. That's where I assume some of the feminists chime in.

CEO's making a ridiculous amount of money is no new news to me. Learned back in college that they are one of the highest paid people in an organization/company. However, it does come at a cost, they are the ones that get in big time doo-doo if the business starts to take a turn for the worst. Even with all that in mind, getting paid that much is still excessive. Yes, I know that he is a well educated man, but I just can't see past the salary. If I was ever part of a company for the well being of animals, I wouldn't need a big fat pay check, knowing that I'm helping out the animals would be more rewarding than any amount of cash for me. I'm saying that's what I'd be like even if I was a well educated person... I've gone to college, does that count for anything? Ha, I'm just kidding. But seriously, I would be happy being just like Ingrid. Being paid to help animals, $40,000 is an amount that anyone could live off of comfortably. You might not have the most extravagant life on $40,000 but I believe that money doesn't buy happiness. I could see Carter still making a decent amount, like $150,000.... But $450,000? That extra $300,000 could be put to a lot of good. No one is going to go hungry making $150,000 a year... If you're sensible. Someone could do a lot clearing $150,000 a year. Hopefully he donates some back to the company

The video that you post of Temple Grandin was awesome! Man, does she know her stuff. It's people like this that make me hopeful that they will be able to reach out to others and inform them/teach. Her videos should be a standard that anyone working in a slaughter house should have to watch, perhaps even annually just as a reminder. Some humans just don't care about animals and their "feelings" some even go as far to say that they don't have the capacity to feel the same way we do.

As for the slaughter houses. They are very clean, yes, but there were a few things that bothered me. The people putting the chickens into the crates seemed to slam a couple of the chickens. I'm not sure if it was intentional (probably not, seeing as they're scared and flailing around) but it looked like it would have hurt. By far way better than some of the chicken farms I have seen, clean and professional done from what we could see. As for the cows, that was really well done. Only problem I have is that the second cow was able to see the other hanging cow. Was the freak out because of that? Hard to say, could be because of the confinement, we'll never know, but it reminds me of the sled dogs that were slaughtered in BC. How they were all being killed in sight of the other dogs and it riled them all up. You witness a mass slaughter of your kind, I think you'd be a little freaked out and worried for yourself as well. I have a feeling that animals have that feeling, the sense that something bad is going to happen, they are the masters of body language. Ideally being able to kill an animal humanely without scaring or startling it first would make me happy. I don't think that would ever be possible, time is of the essence and time is money. That brings me to my next point...

How many slaughter houses have procedures as clean and professional as these two? Like I said, time is money. It seems like it takes a little while for the cows to be killed and then have their blood run out. I've seen houses where they flip the animal, cut its throat, and then have it dragged down the hall by a chain. The cow then proceeds to be lifted up and carried away while it's still bleeding. That to me is disgusting. Cows are clearly not dead, they are left to bleed out, in most cases in front of other cows. That method saves time. There's nothing humane about it at all. I'm hoping that most places do not practice this, but we will never know. Same goes for pigs and chickens, all sorts of animals. You always have the good and bad though, which is unfortunate, would be nice if it was just the good.

As for hunting, I myself don't hunt, I personally don't like the idea of hunting for sport. Displaying dead animals to me is gross, my dad does it and I never understood the mentality behind it. Yes, you can show it off to your friends and tell them the story of how you caught it, but it's just plain weird to me. The animal's life was terminated just to sit on a wall... I just don't like having animals die for silly or no reason at all. I support hunting when the carcass is put to good use. Using all of the body would be ideal, but at least do something with the animal, eat it or make something from it. Don't attack me, that's just my view of things.

Now, for the seals. I don't agree with the "Olympic" shame phrase, that's dumb. The seal hunt should have never been labeled that by anyone, of course people are going to be turned away because of it. To take something that a lot of people around the world value and put that act next to it is moronic. I can see people that are on the fence or don't care about the hunt laughing at it. For all the people that are serious about the matter, I can see them turning away in disgust. I can see how they came to label it that way, but it's silly, like a lot of things they do. As for all the reasons why you don't like the hunt, I agree with all of them, adding that a lot of the seals are only a few days old makes me sad. It's the people that do things inhumanely that give everything a bad.

That's funny with the Duty Minister, good on you.

They say that in order to counter a negative comments you have to hear/read 35 positive comments. That's what leads me to believe why PETA uses a lot of gross images/vicious statements and what not to get their message across, you are not going to forget that, try it.

....As always, I've gone and wrote a bunch when I meant to only make a small post, shame on me. It's just a hard topic not to write on.

[Ravenwolf]

Where once I would have rolled my eyes and thought "OMG you put everything else on hold for a game?!" I now nod my head knowingly and struggle to resist the alluring draw of Skyrim long enough to write this. Also, no apologies for long posts! Either that or I need to start apologizing profusely also, because I know my response will not be any shorter!

Re: Temple Grandin - the good news is that her videos are the standard - according to TED she "has designed humane handling systems for half the cattle-processing facilities in the US, and consults with the meat industry to develop animal welfare guidelines." Hopefully she or people like her will revise the other half! I know she has reviewed audits of Canadian facilities as well, though Canada still has a long way to go. My husband's uncle was a federal meat inspector, though he did at least attest that the horror stories you see and hear about are few and far between. But the problem is the funding and manpower to enforce it, as well as stringent penalties for employees and facilities that do not adhere to humane practices. Alberta's Bouvry export horse slaughter facility has taken a lot of heat for unacceptable practices - the last audit was in 2010, so hopefully the plant pulls up its socks and improves the facility. Again, it distresses me that there are no fines or penalties for a failing audit.

Here's Temple's lecture at TED, just for fun. On a side note, I didn't know they made a movie about her!

http://www.ted.com/talks/temple_grandin_the_world_needs_all_kinds_of_minds.html

Yeah, as I said, I wasn't a fan of the closing chicken crates either. I don't get the impression that it was intentional, just that 'gotta hurry' because more chickens are coming down the chute. I agree that there's got to be a better way than that! For the cattle - yeah, a screen of sorts there would probably make sense, though both cattle look like they're more focused on the person, and that's who they're freaking out about. Most cattle are that skittish around people - we kinda need them to be so that we can herd them easily. I've helped my brother-in-law run cattle, and unless they are "show cattle" they aren't used to human handling. The only time they get that is in a squeeze chute where they are immobilized. It's kinda funny, really, because my dad has a small herd now, and he wants the cows to be his buddies and be able to feed them by hand, but they won't come near him. We've bred that aversion into them, and unless you raise them from calves or forcibly confine and habitualize them, they retain that fear. ...More or less. I've run down bulls on foot, but been charged by an angry cow! So it does not surprise me to see the fear reaction from the steer as the man approaches. I don't think there's really any way of getting around that reaction. Maybe closing the gap where their head has room to thrash, but then you'd have the issue of them not wanting to walk in to begin with.

The slaughter type you're referring to is a mass production kosher plant. For some reason outlined in the Bible, cattle have to be killed by getting their throat slit with a special knife and bleed out that way. I think I know the video you're talking about, and its insurmountably cruel the way that facility operated. Without going back and researching it, all I can recall is that plant is/was located somewhere in the States, Iowa, I think. Oh wait, I found it - Agriprocessors. They finally went bankrupt after a whole slough of issues, including repeated citations for animal cruelty, but also child labour law infractions and a massive raid on illegal immigrants. And you know, if the only good thing PETA ever did in its entire career was bring the atrocities of this plant to light, well, that's a big mark of achievement, I have to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriprocessors

It's not owned by a new company Agri Star, who made this claim for improvements in 2009:

http://www.kwwl.com/global/story.asp?s=11308970

Ah-ha! Found this more recent article. It talks about the vast improvements of the plant but still criticizes the use of the upside-down rotator, though seems to concede that at least it is done humanely and it is the stress of being turned upside down that is now the primary concern. From 2010:

http://www.forward.com/articles/144044/

It is unfortunate that time=money and taking that extra step to reduce suffering may be construed as loss of money, but I think that video shows that they can still produce rather quickly. It takes time to hang them anyway, and a properly stunned cow takes less time to shackle and hang as a struggling one. The design of that hold box keeps the head up, and would allow the knacker to hit him again quickly if the first time wasn't a miss. What I would like to see there is the cursory eyepoke to determine sensibility. It takes no time at all to do and is a failsafe way of ensuring complete insensibility.

For hunting, I do agree, in that sense. I don't encourage trophy hunting. Unless you're going to eat it, or it's going to eat you, there's no reason to kill it. ...Though I will issue a sidebar on necessary culling, but those instances are pretty rare. I don't like mounted heads, though I'm not opposed to European mounts (I love skulls. Love them.) or just antlers. I like that my husband will fill his buck tag on the first buck he sees, whether it's a trophy or a spike. He'll take the trophy for the horns and we'll eat the meat, but the spikers are almost better because they don't taste as gamey. And since our primary goal is meat, it makes more sense. I wish we could find a place to sell the skins to though - it's a terrible waste to get rid of them!

Seal hunting - the agreed upon average age that a seal is killed by hunters is about 25 days. It's kind of sad to think of baby anythings being killed, but the reality is that it's much easier. They don't escape to the water as fast as seasoned adults (thought I would expect that adult skins would be larger and thereby better? Though maybe quality and scarring is an issue.). It's sad, but we kill young critters all the time to eat - veal is from a calf only a few days old, cattle are usually no older than 2 years, chickens are generally less than 2 months old when killed, pigs average 4 months to 1 year, sheep at around 4 months.

As with anything else, I'm against the idea of killing anything solely for fur. I don't think seal meat has ever been the choice of kings, but that market crashed along with the fur trade. The oil from the fat is also useful, and that too is taken with the fur. This article from November 5, 2011 points out that seal hunters still have no real market for the meat right now.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20111105/seal-meat-market-in-china-yet-to-materialize-111105/

Cull numbers are pretty well a moot point - the total number of harp seals killed in the 2011 slaughter was about 38,000 - less than 10% of the allowable catch of 400,000, which is in turn based on a sustainable cull from a population of nearly 6 million seals.

They say that in order to counter a negative comments you have to hear/read 35 positive comments. That's what leads me to believe why PETA uses a lot of gross images/vicious statements and what not to get their message across, you are not going to forget that, try it.

This is a very good way to phrase it. At last I think we come full circle. There is no doubt that their shock tactics are effective to some degree, but in the end I think it still hurts more than helps them. PETA is a household name, true, though moreoften uttered in insult than optimism.

[Elyse]

Where once I would have rolled my eyes and thought "OMG you put everything else on hold for a game?!" I now nod my head knowingly and struggle to resist the alluring draw of Skyrim long enough to write this.

How is Skyrim, by the way? I'm thinking of getting it. How does it compare to Oblivion? Better? Worse?

[Ravenwolf]

How is Skyrim, by the way? I'm thinking of getting it. How does it compare to Oblivion? Better? Worse?

Never played Oblivion. Only Dragon Age. I'm not much into these kinds of games, but I really enjoyed Dragon Age and when I saw the commercial for Skyrim with the big beautiful dragon I turned to my husband and said "I NEED to be a part of that!" The dragons are everything I hoped they would be! The gameplay is fun - harder than Dragon Age (I didn't like Dragon Age 2 though). I don't like how linear conversations are though - in Dragon Age there was a huge diversity in how you can respond to things. For example, I stole a note from some lady saying that her family betrayed some boy, and because she couldn't very well go to the guards about it she put a hit out on me. I killed the thugs, have the note, but you cannot confront her about trying to kill you. Rather odd.

[Elyse]

Never played Oblivion. Only Dragon Age. I'm not much into these kinds of games, but I really enjoyed Dragon Age and when I saw the commercial for Skyrim with the big beautiful dragon I turned to my husband and said "I NEED to be a part of that!" The dragons are everything I hoped they would be! The gameplay is fun - harder than Dragon Age (I didn't like Dragon Age 2 though). I don't like how linear conversations are though - in Dragon Age there was a huge diversity in how you can respond to things. For example, I stole a note from some lady saying that her family betrayed some boy, and because she couldn't very well go to the guards about it she put a hit out on me. I killed the thugs, have the note, but you cannot confront her about trying to kill you. Rather odd.

I want Skyrim. I think its on my Christmas list, actually, one of the few things...

Ah, I LOVE Dragon Age too! And I agree the story in Dragon Age 2 being too linear.

Have you played any of the Fable games? I like the first one, and the second one. The 3rd one sucks.

[Darc-Brittany]

Don't have time to respond right now but I will later tonight.

I saw something that was hilarious though, PETA should advertise like this!

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[Ravenwolf]

Don't have time to respond right now but I will later tonight.

I saw something that was hilarious though, PETA should advertise like this!

LMAO! That's so full of win!

[Darc-Brittany]

._. Little late responding

I'm glad that is the standard for slaughter in US (no idea what Canadian standards are), it does look like it's well done, but my problem with all the animal farming is how the animals are being cared for. Cramped, dingy confinements that are inhumane. Posted video down below to show what I mean.

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Video above is why I do not like eating meat or animal products of any sort. Just what the animals go through and how they are treated. That's Canadian farm footage and I'm sure it's just as bad, if not worst, for the US farms. This is ideally how PETA campaigns should be run, they believe all animals are equal and that's exactly what this campaign was all about. They did it in such a way that people could chose to read it or not. All the bad images are small and at the bottom while featuring cute animals as the main picture. Personally, I think showing two cute animals as the main message draws in way more people than any gross picture would.

I'm from a really small province, PEI, where every second person seems to be a farmer. My uncle was a dairy farmer and his cows were quite tame, you could run up to them and pet them, only time you scared them is when you charged yelling at them. So I guess I don't really know how most cows respond to humans, was just basing off my personal experiences. They were such nice cows, I'd pet them and they'd lick you, my cousin even named one after me "Master Brittany" haha.

I agree with the eye poke as well, maybe some workers would be opposed to doing it. The poke would take no time at all and makes sure that they are dead the first time to avoid any further complications.

I'm glad that plant was shut down. Did not like any of the footage that they showed from that plant in "Earthlings". Pretty disgusting how they handled the animals. I still don't agree with the cow being turned upside down, but at least some other company runs the plant and they don't seem to be nearly as bad as the last.

Ha, I can't stand skulls or antlers or any kind of mount. Seen too many of them while growing up because my dad loved to hunt and stuff everything and anything. He caught a 7ft long Blue Shark one time and brought that home with the intention of stuffing it and hanging it up on the living room wall ;_; Glad he found out that couldn't be done, the coyotes ate well for the next few nights. Terrible waste of a shark. Only thing we had in the house that was stuffed was a raccoon, I love raccoons. His building was another story though, coyote and geese all over the place, nasty.

That's too bad you can't find a place for the skins since I know that a lot of nice stuff can be made from them.

That is true that we eat everything pretty young, kind of gross when you start thinking about it for a while. They do kill a really small amount, which is good, I think it's just upsetting because of the reasons you mentioned earlier. The funny thing is that sea life is taking a hit because of the over population of seals in certain parts of the world.