Toddler at the dog park?!

[Removed #1]

I have small children....and no they don't get to go to the dog park...the older ones yes...because I'm a crazy nazi about them asking before they pet strange dogs and we stress that not all dogs are as affectionate as our own. Younger kids? No... no way in hell. No subtle no nothing, just no. Until a child is old enough to understand safety rules in multiple environments with multiple sorts of stimuli and distractions it just shouldn't happen...for their safety and the general well being of other peoples pets. Struggling sooo much with getting toddler at present to understand that every dog is not as tolerant as Foxy...Oyeish.

Srsly?!?! What was she thinking?

[Amanda Mayson]

I must admit this is a bit of a hard one for me, my daughter is 7 nearly 8 and she has been brought up with animals of all sorts, parents need to teach children from an early age how to respect an animal, from the word go it was a big no no for my daughter to touch any animal that was not ours, she has been to the dog park with me once and on that occasion there must have been around 10 to 15 huskies on the park, she was very respectful to the dogs and remembered everything she had been taught, she to has been knocked over by big dogs, also she is very good at telling Alfie what to do, he listens to her more than me ha ha

[Arooroomom]

It's irresponsible for a parent to bring their kid into a dog park and let them run around willy-nilly with a bunch of strange dogs they don't know. Sorry- you don't need to have kids to know that. Because if something happens to that kid it's OUR (dog owners) fault.

I see nothing wrong with older kids who throw balls for the dogs or who just walk around with their parents. It's the kids running around wrestling with each other and teasing the dogs that I have a problem with and have NO problem telling them and their parents to either reel them in or get out.

I don't bring my dog to play in a childrens park- don't bring your kid to play in my dog park.

[Ravenwolf]

I think it's hugely irresponsible and a senseless risk to the child. There are a lot of rude dogs at the park who jump up on people - no way a toddler is going to stand up to that. And the big dogs especially get playing and run into people who aren't fast enough to get out of the way - again, a small child would be mowed down in a heartbeat.

And gods forbid, if a dog did bite or maul a child, how much fault is on the dog owner and how much on the parent for putting their child in that situation?

Older, knowledgeable kids can be fine, but just because a little kid is fine with the dogs at home doesn't mean a parent should expect all dogs to be fine, especially when they're in a situation of free playtime with many other dogs and tons of excitement. That is the height of naïveté.

[James]

like i said before I think supervision is the most important factor, if you take a toddler to a dog park, it should be by your side at all times, I can see why the lady might have wanted to do it, obviously precautions have to be taken but I don't think its a sign of bad parenting or an atrocity to take a small child to a dog park tbh

[PnkFlyd204]

Going to have to agree with Kristina on this one. As soon as something happens, it's the dog owners fault. Granted, since rules are posted at the dog parks I go to (no children under age 12- apparently it's a county ordinance), I doubt any lawsuit against a dog owner would hold up in court. But frankly, if I were a mother, I would not want to risk my child getting hurt. Accidents happen. Dog fights sometimes break out. I've seen adults get injured badly at parks (like a broken leg one time- dog ran into the person). I can only imagine how bad the injury could have been if this person was a small child.

[PurplePandaRoar]

I bring my toddler to the dog park. But she stays in her stroller and plays with keys or a cell phone. Doesn't make a fuss and if she does we leave. She is only 18 months. She plays with out two huskies all of the time. And they sometimes knock her down. So she is use to being around dogs. BUT, I would never let her loose in the dog park to run around all of the strange dogs. She does pretty good at the dog park. And I don't mind the other dogs coming around and licking her hand or feet. But everyone has an opinion about children at dog parks. I think if you are RESPONSIBLE about it, you're fine.

But what was the woman thinking?! Not even owning a dog letting some small kid run around with strange dogs. That is kind of weird. I never have seen anything like that at my dog park. And ours is small too. I RARELY see more than 10 dogs, even on a Saturday (:

[Bec]

It's irresponsible for a parent to bring their kid into a dog park and let them run around willy-nilly with a bunch of strange dogs they don't know. Sorry- you don't need to have kids to know that. Because if something happens to that kid it's OUR (dog owners) fault.

I see nothing wrong with older kids who throw balls for the dogs or who just walk around with their parents. It's the kids running around wrestling with each other and teasing the dogs that I have a problem with and have NO problem telling them and their parents to either reel them in or get out.

I don't bring my dog to play in a childrens park- don't bring your kid to play in my dog park.

I think it's hugely irresponsible and a senseless risk to the child. There are a lot of rude dogs at the park who jump up on people - no way a toddler is going to stand up to that. And the big dogs especially get playing and run into people who aren't fast enough to get out of the way - again, a small child would be mowed down in a heartbeat.

And gods forbid, if a dog did bite or maul a child, how much fault is on the dog owner and how much on the parent for putting their child in that situation?

Older, knowledgeable kids can be fine, but just because a little kid is fine with the dogs at home doesn't mean a parent should expect all dogs to be fine, especially when they're in a situation of free playtime with many other dogs and tons of excitement. That is the height of naïveté.

Totally agree guys!

[Bec]

Personally, I dnt think there is anything too wrong with it, If your going to take your dogs to an area where they will be off the leash, they must be able to know how to behave arond all different types of people including children, Yes accidents do happen, but its slim and can be mitigated through supervision, more than likely than something serious, the child will be bumped over, but kids are always hurting themselves, and even though i'm not a parent, i don't think its a great idea to moddycoddle or bubblewrap children.

Do you really think that promoting safe dog and child interaction is wrapping children in bubble wrap?

Do you know that young kids are the most likely age group to be bitten by dogs? Do you know that dog attacks are PREVENTABLE? There is no reason for a child to be bitten by a dog, it happens when you don't have adequate training, socialisation and supervision.

I dont use dogparks as there isnt one near me.

thing is I have kids and dogs im not going to leave the kids at home alone while I take the dogs out and vice versa. I would love to be able to take them all out together, and maybe thats what that woman was thinking.

there was other kids there too, mine wasnt the only one and the others were younger.

and they were people from here and im sure if they werent friendly they wouldnt have been offlead in there.

I think it's ok for children to be around dogs but you have to teach them what behaviour is appropriate, and they must be adequately supervised. Letting a toddler run around a small enclosed space with 20 aroused dogs is not a safe practice.

You don't know that every one of those 20 dogs had been appropriately socialised with children, you also can't guarantee what will happen if the dogs get in a fight and your child is in the way or if they get over aroused. Young kids get bitten the most for many reasons, including the fact dogs have trouble reading them and don't like their erratic movements and high pitched cries. Young kids don't have the motor skills to get out of the way in dangerous situations and they don't have the ability to read what is good or bad dog body language. Their faces are also often level with the dog's which means even if they are given a warning bite or nip the damage can be serious.

I don't have kids but I have little sisters who are 2 and 4 and dog and kid safety and education is one of the subjects I am most passionate about, it devastates me every time we hear about a child being attacked, mauled or killed by a dog because there is NO reason why those attacks can't be prevented.

[Removed #1]

Do you really think that promoting safe dog and child interaction is wrapping children in bubble wrap?

Do you know that young kids are the most likely age group to be bitten by dogs? Do you know that dog attacks are PREVENTABLE? There is no reason for a child to be bitten by a dog, it happens when you don't have adequate training, socialisation and supervision.

I think it's ok for children to be around dogs but you have to teach them what behaviour is appropriate, and they must be adequately supervised. Letting a toddler run around a small enclosed space with 20 aroused dogs is not a safe practice.

You don't know that every one of those 20 dogs had been appropriately socialised with children, you also can't guarantee what will happen if the dogs get in a fight and your child is in the way or if they get over aroused. Young kids get bitten the most for many reasons, including the fact dogs have trouble reading them and don't like their erratic movements and high pitched cries. Young kids don't have the motor skills to get out of the way in dangerous situations and they don't have the ability to read what is good or bad dog body language. Their faces are also often level with the dog's which means even if they are given a warning bite or nip the damage can be serious.

I don't have kids but I have little sisters who are 2 and 4 and dog and kid safety and education is one of the subjects I am most passionate about, it devastates me every time we hear about a child being attacked, mauled or killed by a dog because there is NO reason why those attacks can't be prevented.

No, I don't think its wrapping kids in bubble wrap...I do think that it's setting rules and making sure that small children follow those rules for interacting with dogs. I know in my instance our Toddler follows the rules of dog interaction at home and with our dogs MOST of the time...we do have to tell her constantly not to grab faces, ears and tails...we've observed her at places like the lake over the summer and at husky camp with other people's dogs and we know that she can be as unpredictable as an unknown dog when it comes to whether or not she's going to follow the few basics she can grasp. There are times when she just doesn't understand why we tell her she can't do some things, and with her age at present she's constantly testing boundaries and limits.

I agree that letting someone with a limited grasp on basic dog interaction concepts and rules run around 20 some odd dogs isn't a brilliant idea. Add to that the sudden movements, the idea that running in a park is fun, and being often times much smaller in weight than a lot of dogs that are in a larger dog side of an enclosure (not even going to start on the smaller dog side of things)...education and prevention are the best way to go...

I trust my dogs with my children when I'm supervising...I'm not willing to put the sort of trust that my dogs have worked to earn into the dog of a total stranger...particularly based upon my own experience with various other dog owners...there are some good ones to be sure...but there are also so many irresponsible ones and it's hard sometimes to pick them off at a glance.

[Arooroomom]

Well said, Steph

[James]

Do you really think that promoting safe dog and child interaction is wrapping children in bubble wrap?

Do you know that young kids are the most likely age group to be bitten by dogs? Do you know that dog attacks are PREVENTABLE? There is no reason for a child to be bitten by a dog, it happens when you don't have adequate training, socialisation and supervision.

I never said that promoting safe dog and child interaction was bubble wrapping anywhere in my posts??

But If you outrightly refuse to take your child to a dog park then personally yes I think you are.

But like I saidif you do...Supervision is obviously a huge must, and no you shouldn't let your toddler run about with 20 dogs, but at the same time I don't think you should say "no i'm not taking my child to the dog park under any circumstances"

Human fatlaities via Dog attack is extremely low on the grand scale of things, I'd bet my own skin that a higher percentage of toddlers are killed or seriously injured at home in accidents than by Dog attack at a Dog park.

[Bec]

I never said that promoting safe dog and child interaction was bubble wrapping anywhere in my posts??

But If you outrightly refuse to take your child to a dog park then personally yes I think you are.

But like I saidif you do...Supervision is obviously a huge must, and no you shouldn't let your toddler run about with 20 dogs, but at the same time I don't think you should say "no i'm not taking my child to the dog park under any circumstances"

I wouldn't judge any parent who thought a busy crowded dog park was not an appropriate place for a toddler. They aren't playgrounds after all.

Like I said I think it's ok for kids to be there under supervision.

Human fatlaities via Dog attack is extremely low on the grand scale of things, I'd bet my own skin that a higher percentage of toddlers are killed or seriously injured at home in accidents than by Dog attack at a Dog park.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here... are you trying to say that dog attacks are no big deal? Or that the lack of education about dog body language and how to promote safe dog/kid interactions isn't a major cause behind children getting attacked by dogs? (And I'm not just talking about fatalities). Why would you down play something so serious? I'd like to see you say the above to the parents of the 4 year old that was mauled to death by a dog here a couple of months ago...

It doesn't matter how many children are mauled by dogs in dog parks, it is about educating dog owners and parents about safe dog/kid interactions. Letting a toddler run around an enclosed dog park with a large group of dogs is NOT safe. When you look at all the factors, they align with everything we know about why small children are the most likely age group to get bitten by dogs.

[James]

I wouldn't judge any parent who thought a busy crowded dog park was not an appropriate place for a toddler. They aren't playgrounds after all.

Like I said I think it's ok for kids to be there under supervision.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here... are you trying to say that dog attacks are no big deal? Or that the lack of education about dog body language and how to promote safe dog/kid interactions isn't a major cause behind children getting attacked by dogs? (And I'm not just talking about fatalities). Why would you down play something so serious? I'd like to see you say the above to the parents of the 4 year old that was mauled to death by a dog here a couple of months ago...

Indeed But Parents that do take their children to the Dog park shoudln't be judged either (if doing it correctly)

I'm not playing it down at all! of course any child fatality is a horrendous thing! What I was getting at is the Risk factor, the chances of a dog attack are pretty slim anyway, the chances of a dog attack with a well super vised child that understands dog interaction is slimmer yet. Which you wouldn't believe going by some of the people replying saying its a really stupid idea to take a child to a dog park.

But like you said we both agree that its ok if the child is well super vised / has or is being taught safe dog interaction.

[Ravenwolf]

I disagree that it's an appropriate place for a toddler AT ALL.

There's no such thing as properly supervised when you're surrounded by a dozen strange and intensely active dogs. Even holding your toddler's hand right beside you has them still at risk of being run into or jumped on, no matter how vigilant you are. And if there is a bad situation or you encounter aggression, picking the child up will not necessarily stop the attack. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a child in someone arms and a dog jump up at them anyway (usually because the kid had food), well, I'd only have about 4 bucks, but the point still stands. A dog pursuing a child for any reason: aggression/play/food/whatever, may not stop, or may actually intensify when you try to raise the child out of their reach. Even if no physical injury results, what you just might end up with is a traumatized child who is now terrified of dogs.

Older kids under supervision - fine. A 6-year-old has greater capacity for understanding, but also more weight and better balance. Still not ideal, but on a quiet day would probably be just fine IF they have learned their manners around strange dogs.

My thing is that for all there are approximately 78 million dogs in the US (with far less in Canada at around 8 million), it actually genuinely shocks me that there aren't more unfortunate incidents - I think it speaks to the high level of domestication and the generosity of dogs moreso than responsible ownership. And because the incidents where severe bites occur is relatively rare, I think people are overly lax in their behaviour towards dogs. And in virtually each case where a severe bite, mauling or death transpired the owner is entirely to blame for poor training/control/socialization of their dog, and - as Bec said - it's lack of education, it's a situation that was preventable, and it's that complacent attitude of "well my dog is fine therefore all dogs are fine." The rallying cry of the parents of dog bite victims is "I only turned my back for a second! I never thought this could happen!"

So all that being the case, why on earth would it be rational to bring a toddler to an off-leash park? How does the benefit outweigh the risk? That's not rolling a child in bubblewrap, that's being pragmatic.

[James]

I disagree that it's an appropriate place for a toddler AT ALL. <snip>

There have been 11 fatal dog attacks in the US this year so far....of those that were children 5, less than half...how many in dog parks....0

compare that to death toll cause by tripping over 565...... over 50 times more people died by falling over than by an attack from a dog.....

the reality is the chance of a dog attack is incredibly slim, actually less of a risk at a dog park, because the dogs are focused on each other.

nad the point? because its fun to do, facinating for children, they can learn interaction and just enjoy watching them.

so if its such a HORRENDOUS thing to take children to a dog park, based on NO fatalities, then theres probably a whole lot more they shouldn't be doing...

[Removed #1]

There have been 11 fatal dog attacks in the US this year so far....of those that were children 5, less than half...how many in dog parks....0

compare that to death toll cause by tripping over 565...... over 50 times more people died by falling over than by an attack from a dog.....

the reality is the chance of a dog attack is incredibly slim, actually less of a risk at a dog park, because the dogs are focused on each other.

nad the point? because its fun to do, facinating for children, they can learn interaction and just enjoy watching them.

so if its such a HORRENDOUS thing to take children to a dog park, based on NO fatalities, then theres probably a whole lot more they shouldn't be doing...

There's a difference between taking children...ie older children who have a firm grasp on rules in multiple settings and an ability to generalize appropriately, aaaaaaaand children under the age of 3 who haven't mastered bowel movements, will sometimes touch a hot stove even after being told not to, and no firm grasp on the relationship between cause and effect.

It is possible for children to interact with dogs without going to a dog park.

As for statistics...eh there's a statistic for everything and some of those say that my furbabies are dangerous (hahaha!).

Kids should be kids...they should explore the world and hell, they should even do some dumb and dangerous things...(I know I did when I was a kid and I survived). That doesn't mean that parents shouldn't take precautions and use some semblance of sense...no there haven't been any fatalities towards children in dog parks but I'm sure there have been attacks.

As a parent why risk your toddlers safety and well being when they'll do a dandy job of it all on their own? How many kids have been attacked and ended up with disfigurements for the rest of their life as a result? How many of those parents know deep down that it could have been avoided if they would have just waited or chosen to do something different? That's a lot of guilt, and it's something that would be there to look at every single day...I'd just as soon avoid it to be honest.

Older kids...fine at dog parks imo...toddlers...nope, there are other ways and situations that can expose a kid that age to dogs and allow interaction that aren't quite as unpredictable.

ps...only 11 attacks seems like a small number, unless its your child who is one of 11.

[Ravenwolf]

There have been 11 fatal dog attacks in the US this year so far....of those that were children 5, less than half...how many in dog parks....0

compare that to death toll cause by tripping over 565...... over 50 times more people died by falling over than by an attack from a dog.....

the reality is the chance of a dog attack is incredibly slim, actually less of a risk at a dog park, because the dogs are focused on each other.

nad the point? because its fun to do, facinating for children, they can learn interaction and just enjoy watching them.

so if its such a HORRENDOUS thing to take children to a dog park, based on NO fatalities, then theres probably a whole lot more they shouldn't be doing...

My point isn't that it's a place where there is a high risk of getting aggressively attacked - after all most dogs who are brought there are not aggressive, especially towards people - but that the risk of accidental injury is substantial. Dogs careen around the parks and I've seen adults get taken off their feet. Will the child be severely injured? Probably not. But as a dog owner, I'd feel bad if my dog even scratched a toddler, while at the same time I wouldn't be willing to subject myself to a tongue lashing from a parent when I don't think the kid had any business being there to be knocked over.

The fatality/attack stuff is more a sidebar and should be noted as a potential risk, rather than based on statistical occurrence. But one should note that there is no answer to the question "how many children under the age of 5 frequent dog parks?" That's a very small percentage, I'd wager!

Just off the top, here's a few short videos I found. Little boy, parent right there, household dog. The dog doesn't do anything more than turn around and the kid takes a header into the house. Now think about that dog doing the same thing running full tilt after another dog. Think he'd get his hands up in time to stop from smashing into a tree/garbage can/person?

EiiXiJ2hhjY

Even a little boston terrier can easily knock them down.

heLqyrySNFo

Here again. This one's great. It's all well and fun that they can bounce back, but again - is it smart for you to bring a child to a park full of strange, excited dogs to allow this to happen? The impacts are likely to be harder, the dogs may be more persistent.

rrC4W_BzJAY

So I ask again, why is it a good or even justifiable idea to subject your child to this knowingly? At the very least, you're subjecting other people to having to feel bad when their dog mows down your child, and even worse if the kid gets injured. Why risk an incident that could make your child terrified of dogs?

[chinook n sashas mum]

surly they r called dog parks for a reason i wouldnt want to worrie about my girls hurting a child id rather my girls enjoyed there time off there lead not having me like a headless chicken worring over a child in there park!

[Ravenwolf]

If it's so safe and not irresponsible, please explain the following:

Doesn't prohibit, but actively doesn't recommend children younger than 10 and provides strict rules for kids in the park.

http://stdoa.ca/children-and-the-dog-park/

This park is a designated "Dog Park". It is not intended as a children's playground. Dogs in the park can and will often assume "natural canine behavior" (run wildly while at play, etc.), which may not be a safe environment for small children. Shore Dogs Dog Club recommends that you don't bring small children into the park. Unaccompanied children are not allowed in the park -- you bring children at your own risk.

http://www.redwoodcity.org/parks/parksandpools/dogpark.html

Children under the age of 8 not allowed.

http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/parkrules/dogpark.htm

http://twolittlecavaliers.com/2011/05/dog-parks-for-dogs-not-children-says-arlington-virginia.html

3. Children under the age of twelve (12) are not allowed inside the off-leash area, unless accompanied by an adult.

4. Parents should refrain from bringing toddlers and small children to the dog park. At no time will children be allowed to run with or chase after dogs in the park.

http://prca.cobbcountyga.gov/DogPark.htm

http://blog.timesunion.com/bark/kids-at-the-dog-park/1753/

- Children under six years of age should not be brought to a dog park.

- Children must be supervised and accompanied by an adult.

http://www.phantomranch.net/dogparks/dogparks.htm

Children under 9 are not permitted in the park. It is strongly urged that young children not be brought to the dog park for their own safety.

http://www.thewoodlandsdogparkclub.org/locations.htm

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Dog parks all over the place have rules and advisories posted against bringing children to dog parks because it is unsafe for them, and obviously parents need to have rules protecting them from their lack of common sense.

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

Its not really dog attacks that would worry me most....its a dog knocking such a small kid over! No matter how friendly the dog....a lot of damage can be done by them bumping into a child. Bloody hell teeko tried to hop onto the bed this morning, slipped and landed splat on my neck where I was laid down on the edge. He's gentle, he isn't aggressive...no harm intended...yet it knocked the wind out of me and i'm a fully fledged adult!

At the end of the day...stats, rules, videos, stories etc etc...only get people so far. At some point parents need to use common sens and take responsibility for the safety of their child. Weigh up the risks and make a decision. Personally...it isn't a decision I would make but...i am not a parent, though I am a teacher with a class of 5 year olds so maybe i'm extra cautious.

[SaraB]

I don't really mind people bringing their kids to the dog park, unless they aren't controlling them or paying enough attention to them. I've been lucky and the kids I've seen at the park have been fine. Once a lady brought her dog and baby in a stroller to the park. I was holding my breath (I was on the other side of the park) when Siku made a b-line for the stroller! Thankfully she just hit the brakes when she got there and gave the kid some kisses and then left. From my experience kids at the park has never been an issue, but I can see how it could be. Seems like the type who bring their kids have a dog, don't care if their kids get dirty, and tend to keep a good eye on them. But someone who thinks a dog park is a playground for kids and the dogs should mind their own, should not bring their kid to a dog park. It's like people bringing their little dogs on the big dog side (but I think I hate that more! lol).

[Kroush]

So.. what are us people with only one dog supposed to do when we have kids? I just can't keep Loki cooped up all day. it's not like I'm throwing my daughter out with all the other dogs.

[Ravenwolf]

So.. what are us people with only one dog supposed to do when we have kids? I just can't keep Loki cooped up all day. it's not like I'm throwing my daughter out with all the other dogs.

Not go to offleash parks unless you have someone to watch the kids for an hour? Or walk the dog on a leash in a normal park like most folk?

That's the same kind of argument as "why can't my dog go in the grocery store? It's not like he's going to eat off the shelves. So what, I'm supposed to just tie him up outside or leave him at home if I want to shop??"

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Not go to offleash parks unless you have someone to watch the kids for an hour? Or walk the dog on a leash in a normal park like most folk?

thats a ridiculous thing to say imo. Why should she?? why shouldnt she take her dog and kids out together?

people take their dogs to childrens parks, in england they do. In fact in my local park they actually let their dogs off in the playing field which is part of the childrens park! SO does that mean I shouldnt take my kids to the playing field in case they come into contact with offlead dogs??

Nowadays there are offlead dogs everywhere.

Like I said before I dont have a offlead park near me, if I did I would take my kids and my dogs together as the family unit they are.

And those videos, of course in a home if you have dogs the child will get knocked over, ask my 5 year old who regularly gets knocked by my two if they are playing! No its not ideal, but what are you supposed to do? get rid of the dogs?? of course not.

Im thinking this is going the same way as offlead discussions. Face it, some people will be for it some against. Everyone has their own opinion, if we didnt we would all be identical.