Gender Neutral Kids?

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

The only choice he was denied was that to tell other people he’s a boy. I still truly think that if handled right this would be a complete non-issue for him. As I said, I’ve never had any of my nieces or nephews come up to me and say “I’m a girl!†“I’m a boy!â€Â

Direct quote from the article: “and encouraged Sasha to play with dolls as well as Lego and dress in boys’ and girls’ clothes at home.†So they weren’t restricting him to unisex toys, they were offering him a full range of toys and clothing for him to choose from and pick his preferences. That is the ultimate in gender-neutrality!

So what? Do you really think that means they’ve never praised him? Why is “good boy!†so much more important than “well done, Sasha!†You really think he identifies a difference? Why would a 2-5 year old hear “the infant†and think it offensive? I’ve heard far more offensive terms used in endearing ways!

I would be very interested to see and hear more about this child. I don’t get the impression that he is embarrassed or ashamed of his sex – for all we know he could have also thought it merely a fun game to keep people guessing! Assigning the expectation of shame for not revealing himself is unwarranted and rather jumping to conclusions, I think.

Have you been to a kids’ store lately? They don’t have to be very old to figure out that boy toys are here and girl toys are there. The girl aisles are solid eye-searing pink, dotted with cotton candy and turquoise. You don’t think boys quickly learn to be ashamed to even walk down those aisles? You don’t think the outside influence of other parents and children would teach them that shame?

For the purposes of the parents’ intent, not telling people makes perfect sense. The gifts family and friends would have bought would be guiding – we’re programmed to look for suitable boy/girl toys and clothing. There are lots of unisex toys, but we still gravitate toward the “appropriate.â€Â

Sasha has only just started school and his sex is no longer secret. The heaviest social interaction years of his life are ahead and unhindered by this “shame†of keeping the secret. I think that kid will have a very good handle on his likes and dislikes, completely untainted at the start by engendering social indoctrination and judgment by his parents.

And to think that because of this unisex upbringing he will be the subject of torment from his peers and/or be conflicted and ashamed only solidifies the theory that despite our “egalitarian†culture we still very much embrace and reinforce gender roles.

The only choice he was denied was that to tell other people he’s a boy. I still truly think that if handled right this would be a complete non-issue for him. As I said, I’ve never had any of my nieces or nephews come up to me and say “I’m a girl!†“I’m a boy!â€Â

Direct quote from the article: “and encouraged Sasha to play with dolls as well as Lego and dress in boys’ and girls’ clothes at home.†So they weren’t restricting him to unisex toys, they were offering him a full range of toys and clothing for him to choose from and pick his preferences. That is the ultimate in gender-neutrality!

So what? Do you really think that means they’ve never praised him? Why is “good boy!†so much more important than “well done, Sasha!†You really think he identifies a difference? Why would a 2-5 year old hear “the infant†and think it offensive? I’ve heard far more offensive terms used in endearing ways!

I would be very interested to see and hear more about this child. I don’t get the impression that he is embarrassed or ashamed of his sex – for all we know he could have also thought it merely a fun game to keep people guessing! Assigning the expectation of shame for not revealing himself is unwarranted and rather jumping to conclusions, I think.

Have you been to a kids’ store lately? They don’t have to be very old to figure out that boy toys are here and girl toys are there. The girl aisles are solid eye-searing pink, dotted with cotton candy and turquoise. You don’t think boys quickly learn to be ashamed to even walk down those aisles? You don’t think the outside influence of other parents and children would teach them that shame?

For the purposes of the parents’ intent, not telling people makes perfect sense. The gifts family and friends would have bought would be guiding – we’re programmed to look for suitable boy/girl toys and clothing. There are lots of unisex toys, but we still gravitate toward the “appropriate.â€Â

Sasha has only just started school and his sex is no longer secret. The heaviest social interaction years of his life are ahead and unhindered by this “shame†of keeping the secret. I think that kid will have a very good handle on his likes and dislikes, completely untainted at the start by engendering social indoctrination and judgment by his parents.

And to think that because of this unisex upbringing he will be the subject of torment from his peers and/or be conflicted and ashamed only solidifies the theory that despite our “egalitarian†culture we still very much embrace and reinforce gender roles.

Fair points though it wont change my view lol...nor will my view change yours of course.

As with the schooling.....at 5 he should have been in the school system for 2 years.

I still don't think any good is going to come of this and think the media frenzy they have allowed is ridiculous and unfair on the child. As for toy shops...at 29 I still love toy shops! All children should visit toy shops!

I shall say no more! My view is as it is. But...in my job I suppose its one of those things that really hits home, seeing how affected children can be by the smallest thing and the dent this can have on their social abilities and self esteem. So, it does anger me...immensely....but I do of course hear what you are saying about avoiding steretyping into gender but really....dont you think there is a better way to do it?

:-D

[Rosemary]

Your statement is very true. It brings to mind a conversation I once had years ago with a 12-year-old about the war in Iraq. She brought it up completely at random with disparaging remarks, talking about how the Americans found the weapons of mass destruction and how they'd blow those dirty people right off the map. She was infuriated when I told her they never found anything and they were even saying on the news that the initial claim was false. Nope, I was wrong and didn't know what I was talking about and the hate she practically bled genuinely shocked me. A 12-year-old doesn't have that kind of passionate opinion on a war being fought by another country. Her parents do. The hate and filth this child was being bombarded with at home was astonishing, and to disagree with what she her parents thought meant you were an idiot.

Adults with this kind of indoctrination are no better. Any time I hear a racist or homophobic comment I feel the need to ask "and just how many gays/blacks/Mexicans/Natives/whatever have you met?" Usually it stops them dead and they actually have to think about it. A rural farm teen/young adult throwing the word "fag" around at anyone who acts in any perceived effeminate way can rarely say that they've ever truly met a gay person to form any kind of judgement on them. Their experiences are purely the disgust and derision from their parents.

Very true - living where we do we have seen this first hand. I have seen children poisoned by the prejudices, hate and racial fear of their parents.

If great, great, great grandfather Henry stood up from his grave today, he will find that his descendents still hold the same views and prejudices that he passed on to his son/daughter all those years ago. The cycle is extremely hard to break.

[persephona]

After reading all the comments, all I can say is that I think their efforts to keep his gender secret, were at best, futile.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to do it. First of all because they garnered a lot of attention. From the media as well, but probably from the other parents at school and school staff. But maybe this won't matter too much in the long term, but those articles and pictures will never disappear from the internet. Who wants to find that kind of stuff when they google their name?

Also, children can be incredibly mean and not all kids have it in them to reply to a teasing comment. As a parent, I think you should set your kids up for succes and I think there better ways of doing it. Yes, it is important to do what you want and to have confidence in you, but there are also times when you have to do what it is expected, so it's really necessary to be aware of social stereotypes. Especially since we don't live in an ideal world and no matter what, people will judge you. I just don't think they set their kid up for success.

I agree that there are other ways of teaching your children about self confidence and the importance of who you are versus the social stereotypes you are expected to be.

[Ravenwolf]

Fair points though it wont change my view lol...nor will my view change yours of course.

As with the schooling.....at 5 he should have been in the school system for 2 years.

I still don't think any good is going to come of this and think the media frenzy they have allowed is ridiculous and unfair on the child. As for toy shops...at 29 I still love toy shops! All children should visit toy shops!

I shall say no more! My view is as it is. But...in my job I suppose its one of those things that really hits home, seeing how affected children can be by the smallest thing and the dent this can have on their social abilities and self esteem. So, it does anger me...immensely....but I do of course hear what you are saying about avoiding steretyping into gender but really....dont you think there is a better way to do it?

:-D

Huzzah for rational discussions! A good debate makes me so happy! It's always great if you can get the other person to come around to sharing your point of view, but mostly I like to know the whys of why people think the way they do.

At 5 he's been going to school for 2 years? I guess things must be different in Britain - kids don't start kindergarten here until they are 5.

I agree 100% that the media circus is ridiculous and unfair.

I agree kids should visit toy shops too - they are such a magical world of awesome! Though even as a child I resented having to search the Aisle of Pink to find my toy horses.

See and I've seen a lot of how stereotyping and indoctrination can affect children and damage their social ability and self-esteem. To have a friend who was never actually "himself" until he was 24 was a real eye-opener. I always liked the guy, but when he came out of the closet - despite the unbelievable rejection he knew he would get from his father and being immediately ostracized by some "friends" - he was suddenly a complete joy to be around. Unhindered, hilarious, free. Living in denial and shame for most of his 24 years had crushed so much of his personality. Had he been allowed to express himself earlier in life without being shut down because his behaviour was not gender-acceptable would have saved him a lot of anxiety, depression and heavy medication.

When child is suicidal because of the guilt and shame of feeling like they are a deviant and that something is wrong with them because of their preferences - not necessarily even sexual in nature - I would say that has more lasting damage than a child being given free rein to explore all life has to offer - even if his sex was kept a secret for a time. Again, if he were of indeterminate sex, this would be an entirely different conversation, I think.

I don't think that hiding a child's sex is necessary nor should it be encouraged, but I do see it as a rather harmless addition to the "experiment." I think it is a profound example though of how open a child's upbringing can (should?) be and a big step toward eliminating gender stereotypes. I think this kind of thing has been done enough to have already proven that masculine/feminine tendencies exist and that you can still have well-adjusted children without the forced indoctrination of gender flooding. But it lets the men who want to be nurses work and allows women to be welders - both jobs that I know for a fact involve massive difficulties in the opposite sex being involved in.

[Ravenwolf]

Also, children can be incredibly mean and not all kids have it in them to reply to a teasing comment. As a parent, I think you should set your kids up for succes and I think there better ways of doing it. Yes, it is important to do what you want and to have confidence in you, but there are also times when you have to do what it is expected, so it's really necessary to be aware of social stereotypes. Especially since we don't live in an ideal world and no matter what, people will judge you. I just don't think they set their kid up for success.

I agree that there are other ways of teaching your children about self confidence and the importance of who you are versus the social stereotypes you are expected to be.

But see, this is how the cycle persists. If every child was sent to school with the understanding that only boys take Shop and only girls take Home Economics, where would be? In 1997 I was called into the principal's office and asked to withdraw from Mechanics because a boy wanted to take the class with his brother. Me. The only girl registered was asked to give up my place for a boy. They did not ask any other student. My father is a mechanic and I knew a lot about repair by this point and wanted to learn how an engine truly works - I probably had a head start over the majority of the other students. But I was a girl. I adamantly refused to withdraw and even at 16 was supremely offended.

The worst part was when I had to change my classes around to add a course I needed, the only French class was during Mechanics. I ended up having to withdraw anyway. And as the capricious gods would have it, guess what was the only class available during my open block? Yep. Home Ec. Fortunately, turns out lots of boys took it to meet girls, so all was not lost.

But I digress. My point is, you can't have it both ways. You can't raise a small child to be open-minded and make their own gender choices while at the same time making sure they behave in a sterotypically appropriate matter so that you can "set your kid up for success." To reuse an example, it's like the little boy who dressed as Daphne for Hallowe'en. Are you saying that his mother should have forbid it to spare him the cruelty of others (as it turned out the parents, not his peers) because dressing as a girl is deviant? She willingly sent her 5 year-old kid out of the house dressed in drag, knowing full well - as he also did - that he might be the subject of teasing?

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

Huzzah for rational discussions! A good debate makes me so happy! It's always great if you can get the other person to come around to sharing your point of view, but mostly I like to know the whys of why people think the way they do.

At 5 he's been going to school for 2 years? I guess things must be different in Britain - kids don't start kindergarten here until they are 5.

I agree 100% that the media circus is ridiculous and unfair.

I agree kids should visit toy shops too - they are such a magical world of awesome! Though even as a child I resented having to search the Aisle of Pink to find my toy horses.

See and I've seen a lot of how stereotyping and indoctrination can affect children and damage their social ability and self-esteem. To have a friend who was never actually "himself" until he was 24 was a real eye-opener. I always liked the guy, but when he came out of the closet - despite the unbelievable rejection he knew he would get from his father and being immediately ostracized by some "friends" - he was suddenly a complete joy to be around. Unhindered, hilarious, free. Living in denial and shame for most of his 24 years had crushed so much of his personality. Had he been allowed to express himself earlier in life without being shut down because his behaviour was not gender-acceptable would have saved him a lot of anxiety, depression and heavy medication.

When child is suicidal because of the guilt and shame of feeling like they are a deviant and that something is wrong with them because of their preferences - not necessarily even sexual in nature - I would say that has more lasting damage than a child being given free rein to explore all life has to offer - even if his sex was kept a secret for a time. Again, if he were of indeterminate sex, this would be an entirely different conversation, I think.

I don't think that hiding a child's sex is necessary nor should it be encouraged, but I do see it as a rather harmless addition to the "experiment." I think it is a profound example though of how open a child's upbringing can (should?) be and a big step toward eliminating gender stereotypes. I think this kind of thing has been done enough to have already proven that masculine/feminine tendencies exist and that you can still have well-adjusted children without the forced indoctrination of gender flooding. But it lets the men who want to be nurses work and allows women to be welders - both jobs that I know for a fact involve massive difficulties in the opposite sex being involved in.

I think children here are pretty open to differences. I've had several severely disabled children in my care who were just as much a part of the class as any other child. I currently have a young boy who wears a suit jacket, jeans and bow tie to any non uniform day because he loves dr who...a girl in year 2 who knows more about car mechanics than I could ever dream of...our children at least are very open and accpting which I do think is wonderful.

School...children start nursery at 3 years old...then they move to a reception class before starting year 1 at 5. So yups, he should have been in the education system for 2 years by now.

And agreed....huzzah for the honest debate! Lol! Its good to have different views and be able to share them....if we didn't....we'd all be the stereotype haha! :-P

[Mistyrayn]

very interesting debate..

:offtopic:its been fantastic to read peoples differing opinions they vary a fair amount .. and one main thing you all have in common... it has all been done with no arguments or bitchyness.. thanks everyone one it has made very interesting reading....

[naomiJayne]

very interesting debate..

:offtopic:its been fantastic to read peoples differing opinions they vary a fair amount .. and one main thing you all have in common... it has all been done with no arguments or bitchyness.. thanks everyone one it has made very interesting reading....

I agree with what you said. I foud this that much more 'interesting' to read becuase of the discussion about it.

The genderless argument - I can see pros and cons to both sides of the coin so I won't bother typing out a load of waffle (It's all been said by others)

Just as an end note: My little brother was susupected autism and my mum was told to go out and buy 'make belive' toys such as a ironing board/iron/kitchen/dolls/pram - mainly things that are 'girls toys' (Turns out he hasn't got autism but he loved those toys) and it hasn't affected him one bit now he's older..he loves doctor who and playing his Ds.

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

Huzzah for rational discussions! A good debate makes me so happy! It's always great if you can get the other person to come around to sharing your point of view, but mostly I like to know the whys of why people think the way they do.

At 5 he's been going to school for 2 years? I guess things must be different in Britain - kids don't start kindergarten here until they are 5.

I agree 100% that the media circus is ridiculous and unfair.

I agree kids should visit toy shops too - they are such a magical world of awesome! Though even as a child I resented having to search the Aisle of Pink to find my toy horses.

See and I've seen a lot of how stereotyping and indoctrination can affect children and damage their social ability and self-esteem. To have a friend who was never actually "himself" until he was 24 was a real eye-opener. I always liked the guy, but when he came out of the closet - despite the unbelievable rejection he knew he would get from his father and being immediately ostracized by some "friends" - he was suddenly a complete joy to be around. Unhindered, hilarious, free. Living in denial and shame for most of his 24 years had crushed so much of his personality. Had he been allowed to express himself earlier in life without being shut down because his behaviour was not gender-acceptable would have saved him a lot of anxiety, depression and heavy medication.

When child is suicidal because of the guilt and shame of feeling like they are a deviant and that something is wrong with them because of their preferences - not necessarily even sexual in nature - I would say that has more lasting damage than a child being given free rein to explore all life has to offer - even if his sex was kept a secret for a time. Again, if he were of indeterminate sex, this would be an entirely different conversation, I think.

I don't think that hiding a child's sex is necessary nor should it be encouraged, but I do see it as a rather harmless addition to the "experiment." I think it is a profound example though of how open a child's upbringing can (should?) be and a big step toward eliminating gender stereotypes. I think this kind of thing has been done enough to have already proven that masculine/feminine tendencies exist and that you can still have well-adjusted children without the forced indoctrination of gender flooding. But it lets the men who want to be nurses work and allows women to be welders - both jobs that I know for a fact involve massive difficulties in the opposite sex being involved in.

Sorry for bringing this one back to the front but I heard this in school today and it amused me so thought I'd share it with you!

Young boy: Miss, have you heard about that kid in the news? It was on Daybreak. He's a boy but his parents made him grow up a girl. Pretended he wasn't a boy. He played with girls toys and wears girls clothes.

Teacher: Well there isn't anything wrong with playing with girls toys though is there.

Young boy: No. But why did his mam and dad make him pretend to be a girl. Why didn't they just let him play with them?

Teacher: Well, I just don't know the answer to that one. You'd have to ask his parents.

Young boy: Well...actually...they said 'neutral'...but I don't know what that means.

Teacher: I think your friends are waiting outside.

Really made me chuckle!

[Ravenwolf]

Sorry for bringing this one back to the front but I heard this in school today and it amused me so thought I'd share it with you!

Young boy: Miss, have you heard about that kid in the news? It was on Daybreak. He's a boy but his parents made him grow up a girl. Pretended he wasn't a boy. He played with girls toys and wears girls clothes.

Teacher: Well there isn't anything wrong with playing with girls toys though is there.

Young boy: No. But why did his mam and dad make him pretend to be a girl. Why didn't they just let him play with them?

Teacher: Well, I just don't know the answer to that one. You'd have to ask his parents.

Young boy: Well...actually...they said 'neutral'...but I don't know what that means.

Teacher: I think your friends are waiting outside.

Really made me chuckle!

That is pretty funny, although why couldn't the teacher have explained what neutral meant?

It is still interesting to look at how this boy perceived the story - he heard the word neutral and didn't understand what it meant, but to have the boy play with girl toys and wear girl clothes meant they were making him pretend to be a girl, even though he acknowledges that he should still be allowed to play with them... A sticky spot indeed!

I was looking for this article earlier and finally stumbled upon it, so I'll share it now! Without going back and digging through my Anthro and Sociology books to find accurate historical timeframes and case studies, I'll just have to be content with the mention this article makes about how - throughout much of our history - children up to at least the age of 6 were dressed in the same simple white gowns. There are many cultures throughout the world where children are considered to be sexless beings until a certain age (usually some point just prior to puberty) and as such were immune from gender roles and taboos.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html

[persephona]

That is pretty funny, although why couldn't the teacher have explained what neutral meant?

It is still interesting to look at how this boy perceived the story - he heard the word neutral and didn't understand what it meant, but to have the boy play with girl toys and wear girl clothes meant they were making him pretend to be a girl, even though he acknowledges that he should still be allowed to play with them... A sticky spot indeed!

I was looking for this article earlier and finally stumbled upon it, so I'll share it now! Without going back and digging through my Anthro and Sociology books to find accurate historical timeframes and case studies, I'll just have to be content with the mention this article makes about how - throughout much of our history - children up to at least the age of 6 were dressed in the same simple white gowns. There are many cultures throughout the world where children are considered to be sexless beings until a certain age (usually some point just prior to puberty) and as such were immune from gender roles and taboos.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html

I find it ironic that in the past, there wasn't so much a gender differentiation between children, yet the society roles of men and women as separate genders were much more strictly defined.

On a sidenote, I never wore pink as a little girl. It was still back when, at least here, these things were not popular. Obviously, with the fall of the communism and increasing globalisation, these stereotypes settled here as well.