The suprising economics of purchasing a puppy

[Michelle Melsom]

Good article

http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/17/how-much-is-that-doggie-in-the-window-the-surprising-economics-of-purchasing-a-purebred-puppy/

[SaraB]

Thanks for posting that! Really good read. His other one is good too: http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstjohn/2012/02/14/westminster-show-dog-and-the-battle-over-purebred-puppies/

[persephona]

That's a good article, but when she says that a BYB pup can end up costing more in vet bills or others, that's not entirely true. Surely not all BYB puppies are "defect", in fact the majority probably turn out perfectly fine without genetic diseases or temperamental issues.

Don't get me wrong, I am of the opinion that you should always buy a puppy from a responsible breeder/adopt, but having a BYB pup is not the end of the world and I there are people that just can't afford to pay that much on a puppy. We do spend a lot on ours, but if we really wanted to save money - feeding Pedigree or something cheaper, not buying a toy whenever I feel like it or buying new leashes and collars when we see something nice and so on we could probably manage to keep yearly costs under the price ours was purchased for. So I can understand why some people who would still like to have a purebred (more or less) would go for a BYB.

[Michelle Melsom]

That's a good article, but when she says that a BYB pup can end up costing more in vet bills or others, that's not entirely true. Surely not all BYB puppies are "defect", in fact the majority probably turn out perfectly fine without genetic diseases or temperamental issues.

Don't get me wrong, I am of the opinion that you should always buy a puppy from a responsible breeder/adopt, but having a BYB pup is not the end of the world and I there are people that just can't afford to pay that much on a puppy. We do spend a lot on ours, but if we really wanted to save money - feeding Pedigree or something cheaper, not buying a toy whenever I feel like it or buying new leashes and collars when we see something nice and so on we could probably manage to keep yearly costs under the price ours was purchased for. So I can understand why some people who would still like to have a purebred (more or less) would go for a BYB.

Your right its not the end of the world especially if you didnt know but If you were looking for a cheaper option its just best not to take that chance becasue it could and in the end you would spend more. If you cant afford that for a puppy I think dont get one...why support BYB it will keep them doing what they do and fill up shelters

[Kara]

This was the tactics behind why we ended up buying our GSD from a breeder, we also sought out breeders a long time ago that had DDR dogs, as there were less hip issues, and bred for work, obedience and agility and not show. I feel better now reading this article in our reasoning behind the amount of money we just dropped on a puppy and that I will be eating rice and pasta for the next month:)

[SaraB]

^ Haha...Yeah, I dunno what the normal price of a GSD is, but wow you should see what french bulldogs go for! We have a lady in our kennel club who breeds frenchies and that's one of the first things she tells people wanting one. I guess the extra price comes from very small litters and needing a c-section.

[HuskyMom09]

I will just add this, my good friend spent over $1,700 for a BYB AKC registered puppy, who ended up getting premature arthritis, hip displaysia, and cataracts...he's a wonderful companion still but sadly has raked her bank account over the coals with his vet bills. Whereas I didn't spend even half of that for a responsibly bred puppy who has been the picture of health and quality, I couldn't be happier. I don't think either of us regret our decisions in the long run, but I know that my g-friend would probably do a bit more research the next time around.

[Laine]

I paid $250 for Orion and he's purebred (though not papered). While not a BYB by any means, I've discovered that, for Seppalas anyway, who the dog goes to matters more than "how much". And as my breeder said when she gave me Shila - yes, gave, for free - "It's better to see them go to a good home". I could have even taken Eden too if I wanted but three dogs at once was too much. As it is I will most likely go back to her for any further dogs, or ask her suggestions for other people to contact. I do know that most others who have pups of Seppala lines, the max I've ever seen for them is $600 and that's for some of the more "higher end" kennels. I know if I ever did breed my dogs, I wouldn't charge $1,500 for them certainly.

[Michelle Melsom]

I paid $250 for Orion and he's purebred (though not papered). While not a BYB by any means, I've discovered that, for Seppalas anyway, who the dog goes to matters more than "how much". And as my breeder said when she gave me Shila - yes, gave, for free - "It's better to see them go to a good home". I could have even taken Eden too if I wanted but three dogs at once was too much. As it is I will most likely go back to her for any further dogs, or ask her suggestions for other people to contact. I do know that most others who have pups of Seppala lines, the max I've ever seen for them is $600 and that's for some of the more "higher end" kennels. I know if I ever did breed my dogs, I wouldn't charge $1,500 for them certainly.

Good breeders dont make money off of their dogs all of the cost for the dog that you pay for goes to health tests, shots and care which was explained in the article. "Purebred" dogs without papers are usually less because the breeder did not have to pay for papers. To get papers for one can actually be quite expensive but I dont think that a breeder who gives away their dogs cares more about their dogs then a breeder that does charge more. I know a pure seppala breeder but I dont know the price of her pure seppala's. I do know a breeder who has seppala's in her lines and she charges $800 for puppies but again that is mostly to the cost of proper care.

[Laine]

Good breeders dont make money off of their dogs all of the cost for the dog that you pay for goes to health tests, shots and care which was explained in the article. "Purebred" dogs without papers are usually less because the breeder did not have to pay for papers. To get papers for one can actually be quite expensive but I dont think that a breeder who gives away their dogs cares more about their dogs then a breeder that does charge more. I know a pure seppala breeder but I dont know the price of her pure seppala's. I do know a breeder who has seppala's in her lines and she charges $800 for puppies but again that is mostly to the cost of proper care.

I didn't mean to imply those giving a dog away for free care more, but meant to point out that for some who the dogs go to is all that matters, not the money. I don't know what my breeder will be charging for me to get the papers - though I don't think there'll be any charge at all from what I understood at the time - though I do understand it can be expensive.

I do know my breeder, when she's selling her dogs, ranges them from two to five hundred roughly, so it's not like she doesn't charge. I just got lucky getting Shila and Orion. And as it is she dropped Eden's price from five hundred to three (which just might have me recontact her about Eden once Orion's a year old and the dogs are set up outside). And she's got pups of Alaskan Seppala lines for 250 negotiable. Thing is, a lot of breeders of the dogs in that area kind'a ask the same prices so maybe it's not a breeder thing but more a community thing? I got Arizona originally for 250 and know her other sibs were that much. And someone had Arizona's nieces and nephews for 500.

If the Seppala breeder you know is who I'm thinking of, I don't know either We never got to the "price" stage of things.

To me, though, IMO, charging a huge amount for a puppy ("That other Seppala" guy from Canada, I heard, was charging Three Grand!! for a puppy that was most likely inbred due to a closed breeding pool) is just outright stupid. Personally I would spend six to eight hundred on a dog, if I thought it was reasonable. Maybe even a thousand, depending on the dog and their background/ped (I'd pay a thousand for a good GSD, for example) but likely not fifteen (although it does depend) but certainly not any more than that. That's just getting into the realm of money grabbers.

[Ravenwolf]

This article needs to be pinned!

Both of them are good, though I do think his comparison of the roulette wheel that is adoption versus buying a puppy is highly skewed. St John and his wife did not know how to socialize and aid their rescue dog, but were very proactive in selecting a pup based on very clear personality cues for what they wanted. This is very good, but not something that puppy buyers typically seem to do. Oh sure, they watch the pups and select one based on whether it's quiet, or rambunctious, or often they just want the one that investigates comes to them first. Then they are surprised to get home and in the coming months have a puppy who is more aggressive or fearful than they expected a puppy to be, and don't know how to handle it. A puppy can be just as much of an effort to raise and habilitate into a home as a rescue with issues. An owner can take a well-socialized puppy and turn it into a fearful, dog aggressive individual through their own fearful responses to other dogs.

Maybe I've just been fortunate in my rescues/rehomes that none of them have had severe issues to work out (or maybe my idea of 'severe' issues is just different from the average owner), but I find that when you get from a rescue, they've done a lot of the legwork already and can tell you exactly what kind of temperament the dog has and what kind of home they would be well-suited to.

As to health issues, I agree 100% with responsible, professional breeding over BYB. You truly don't know what health issues a rescue could end up with, though again, I've been fortunate enough that we've never had any rear up. I've seen more health and temperament issues with purebreds than rescued mutts.

[Michelle Melsom]

I didn't mean to imply those giving a dog away for free care more, but meant to point out that for some who the dogs go to is all that matters, not the money. I don't know what my breeder will be charging for me to get the papers - though I don't think there'll be any charge at all from what I understood at the time - though I do understand it can be expensive.

I do know my breeder, when she's selling her dogs, ranges them from two to five hundred roughly, so it's not like she doesn't charge. I just got lucky getting Shila and Orion. And as it is she dropped Eden's price from five hundred to three (which just might have me recontact her about Eden once Orion's a year old and the dogs are set up outside). And she's got pups of Alaskan Seppala lines for 250 negotiable. Thing is, a lot of breeders of the dogs in that area kind'a ask the same prices so maybe it's not a breeder thing but more a community thing? I got Arizona originally for 250 and know her other sibs were that much. And someone had Arizona's nieces and nephews for 500.

If the Seppala breeder you know is who I'm thinking of, I don't know either We never got to the "price" stage of things.

To me, though, IMO, charging a huge amount for a puppy ("That other Seppala" guy from Canada, I heard, was charging Three Grand!! for a puppy that was most likely inbred due to a closed breeding pool) is just outright stupid. Personally I would spend six to eight hundred on a dog, if I thought it was reasonable. Maybe even a thousand, depending on the dog and their background/ped (I'd pay a thousand for a good GSD, for example) but likely not fifteen (although it does depend) but certainly not any more than that. That's just getting into the realm of money grabbers.

Yeah when your charging a crazy price you know isnt going towards care you have to suspect its just for money -.- Pure seppala lines are hard to keep (or so ive heard) so I could see them being a little more expensive. Marius was $800 with limited registration and thats the breeders "pet price" becasue I want to show him I will be paying an extra $400 for his full registration. I think its good to have prices seperate and I think it was a fair price

[Ron Tao&Sky]

Your right its not the end of the world especially if you didnt know but If you were looking for a cheaper option its just best not to take that chance becasue it could and in the end you would spend more. If you cant afford that for a puppy I think dont get one...why support BYB it will keep them doing what they do and fill up shelters

Does this mean that all pups from BYB be ignored? Some one has to buy them or all the shelters will be full and overflowing more than what they are now. It's a viscous circle I know., but you pays your money and takes your pick. My two where sort of rescued from a BYB using a bit of blackmail, and no doubt I would do it again if the need arises..........Ron

[Ravenwolf]

Does this mean that all pups from BYB be ignored? Some one has to buy them or all the shelters will be full and overflowing more than what they are now. It's a viscous circle I know., but you pays your money and takes your pick. My two where sort of rescued from a BYB using a bit of blackmail, and no doubt I would do it again if the need arises..........Ron

The problem is that's the kind of reasoning that perpetuates the cycle. Money don't care for what reason you made the purchase. If people avoided them and the puppies don't get sold and the BYB is forced to surrender them or give them away (because they likely aren't planning to/can't keep them all), they don't make money off them and probably lost money on the venture, meaning they would (hopefully) think twice about doing it again. In that scenario, if the puppies/young dogs end up at the shelter they are usually the first to get rehomed.

[persephona]

Yeah when your charging a crazy price you know isnt going towards care you have to suspect its just for money -.- Pure seppala lines are hard to keep (or so ive heard) so I could see them being a little more expensive. Marius was $800 with limited registration and thats the breeders "pet price" becasue I want to show him I will be paying an extra $400 for his full registration. I think its good to have prices seperate and I think it was a fair price

Yeah but that will mean an extra 400$ to the breeder, while her costs essentially stay the same. And to be fair, if you show him and he does well in the ring, then it will be even better for her.

I know that it is said that responsible breeders don't breed for money, but let's be honest here. There is absolutely NO WAY responsible breeders come at a loss with every litter they have. If it would be that unprofitable to breed dogs, there would be no responsible breeders out there doing it. I am not saying you can make a living out of dog breeding, but it's fair to say that even responsible breeders are interested in the money!

[SaraB]

Does this mean that all pups from BYB be ignored? Some one has to buy them or all the shelters will be full and overflowing more than what they are now. It's a viscous circle I know., but you pays your money and takes your pick. My two where sort of rescued from a BYB using a bit of blackmail, and no doubt I would do it again if the need arises..........Ron

It really does suck, but BYB's are not going to stop breeding until there is no market for their dogs. For instance, I know a couple who let their dogs breed on accident. They never intended to breed them (or so they say), but when they made some easy cash off of the puppies, they decided to do it again! Now if they had had a much harder time finding homes for the puppies and the puppies ended up being several months old tearing apart their house before they found them homes or gave them to rescue, I bet they would think twice about breeding again.

We went to see a husky puppy from a BYB. Just a regular family struggling for money a bit from looking at their house. They had bred their husky and we found out they were planning on breeding her again. I feel safe saying they were only breeding for the money cause they needed it. the second breeding was going to be with a wolf hybrid! We felt really bad for the puppies, but we went home empty handed, cause we didn't want to support that family's breeding practices. Hopefully it was hard for them to find the puppies homes (they were about 4 months old at the time) and made them decide not to breed again. But probably not. Husky puppies are pretty easy to sell to just about anyone.

[SaraB]

Yeah but that will mean an extra 400$ to the breeder, while her costs essentially stay the same. And to be fair, if you show him and he does well in the ring, then it will be even better for her.

I know that it is said that responsible breeders don't breed for money, but let's be honest here. There is absolutely NO WAY responsible breeders come at a loss with every litter they have. If it would be that unprofitable to breed dogs, there would be no responsible breeders out there doing it. I am not saying you can make a living out of dog breeding, but it's fair to say that even responsible breeders are interested in the money!

That's if they have a big enough litter.

To me showing in conformation is only to make sure your dog is a good candidate to breed, though I know some people just do it as a hobby or for their egos. Finishing a dog (getting their championship) ends up costing a lot. I've only been to 8 shows (3 different weekends) and I think I've already spent about $1,000 on it all (entry fee, grooming, hotel, travel) and haven't even gotten Elara's first point yet. After you add up all the costs from showing and the costs of the health tests, $1,000 per puppy for a litter of 4 isn't going to make you much or at all considering you will probably be keeping one. You can end up with a big litter and make money or you may end up like a lady I know and spend a lot on an emergency c-section and have only two puppies which she ended up keeping! No money made there! So I think a breeder is lucky if they at least break even at the end of it all. I bet small hobby breeders who only keep one or two females generally lose money, but the bigger breeders, ones who have multiple litters a year, probably do make some money on their breeding program.

[persephona]

That's if they have a big enough litter.

To me showing in conformation is only to make sure your dog is a good candidate to breed, though I know some people just do it as a hobby or for their egos. Finishing a dog (getting their championship) ends up costing a lot. I've only been to 8 shows (3 different weekends) and I think I've already spent about $1,000 on it all (entry fee, grooming, hotel, travel) and haven't even gotten Elara's first point yet. After you add up all the costs from showing and the costs of the health tests, $1,000 per puppy for a litter of 4 isn't going to make you much or at all considering you will probably be keeping one. You can end up with a big litter and make money or you may end up like a lady I know and spend a lot on an emergency c-section and have only two puppies which she ended up keeping! No money made there! So I think a breeder is lucky if they at least break even at the end of it all. I bet small hobby breeders who only keep one or two females generally lose money, but the bigger breeders, ones who have multiple litters a year, probably do make some money on their breeding program.

If you have multiple litters a year, you will definitely be making some money. As I said, not necessarily enough to make a living. But you can bet they haven't become "professional" breeders because they lose money on each litter, even with all the showing. (I don't want to get into calculating costs, but statistically, most females will NOT have to have a c-section or lose their litter, so if you have many litters, you are bound to have more "successful" ones than lost ones)

It's true that if you just breed as a hobby, well, you won't do it for money and I agree you will probably be making a loss.

[Michelle Melsom]

Yeah but that will mean an extra 400$ to the breeder, while her costs essentially stay the same. And to be fair, if you show him and he does well in the ring, then it will be even better for her.

I know that it is said that responsible breeders don't breed for money, but let's be honest here. There is absolutely NO WAY responsible breeders come at a loss with every litter they have. If it would be that unprofitable to breed dogs, there would be no responsible breeders out there doing it. I am not saying you can make a living out of dog breeding, but it's fair to say that even responsible breeders are interested in the money!

Its not an extra $400 for the breeder that includes costs of actually paying the kennel club for paper work etc. Showing him doesnt really benifit her as much if my dog isnt co-owned

If you have multiple litters a year, you will definitely be making some money. As I said, not necessarily enough to make a living. But you can bet they haven't become "professional" breeders because they lose money on each litter, even with all the showing. (I don't want to get into calculating costs, but statistically, most females will NOT have to have a c-section or lose their litter, so if you have many litters, you are bound to have more "successful" ones than lost ones)

It's true that if you just breed as a hobby, well, you won't do it for money and I agree you will probably be making a loss.

I dont know a single breeder that makes a living off of their dogs no matter how many they have. They all work full time jobs or their husbands bring in alot of money. They might have a time where they break even or make a bit but not a good profit.

[NicTurtle]

I've bought all mine from breeders because I wanted to show them, but I've had a nightmare experience with 3 of the breeders! After spending all the money and still ending up with so many issues, I can see a definite appeal of driving an hour to someone's house and picking up a BYB pup at less than half the cost if all I wanted was a pet. Though as someone who just accidentally had two litters I agree that it is tremendously expensive in money, time and inconvenience to be responsible about it from the moment you know your b_tch is pregnant to the time the last pup leaves. Just in food, shots, training pads, chew toys etc for the puppies we spent hundreds of dollars. I will NEVER do it again unless I have a champion show dog and even then I'd probably dread it because of all the unknowns! But I honestly can't say where I'd get my next pup either....maybe look for a breeder with an older one that didn't sell...since I don't live close enough to any rescues.