Dog Whisperer?

[Ravenwolf]

I always feel like I type out the same old thing when if comes to Cesar Millan, so I'ma just summarize in point form:

- I agree with many of his techniques and respect what he does. But also never forget that it's - at the end of the day - a tv show.

- Not everyone is 100% correct/perfect and I don't agree with everything he does, and I don't expect anyone agrees with everything anyone does.

- Not everything in life can be solved with treats and love and positive reinforcement. It is a combination of techniques that work, and I like that Cesar will employ different techniques based on different dogs' needs.

I still maintain that the explanation of alpha/dominance is a practical approach for most people. Of course people take it way too far, but for the most part it seems that dog owners humanize their pets and feel that they are incapable of providing boundaries and enforcement of them to their dogs. Tell them they are the "pack leader" and it empowers them to put their foot down and not allow bad behaviour. It reminds them that their dog is an animal not a human, and should be treated as such - which means to give them the respect they deserve as a creature who thinks and behaves in a different fashion that humans.

For the record, I also really like the "sshht!" noise. For years I used a hissing snake-type noise with horses - going by the theory that since humans do not have a clear way of showing displeasure such as pinning ears, I would use the sound in that fashion. Horses learn very quick that the harsher the hiss the more they're pushing their luck. When I first saw Cesar's show and saw him use that with dogs my reaction was "why didn't I think to do that?" I use it now - for a while I admit I did overuse it. It's beneficial in that I think it typically gets the dog's attention better than our much overused vocal word-commands.

[Ravenwolf]

I personally do not like Cesar's techniques the only thing I agree on with him is his belief of why dogs are misbehaving is usually the result of poor ownership. However my opinion of his techniques to handle huskies is in exact contradiction of what a husky is.

1. He believes that all dogs should never walk or lead in front of you (its displaying his/her dominance) guess what the huskies did for hundreds of years.

2. He believes that bullying a dog into submission is the only way to get a dog to obey you. Most dogs and certainly huskies don't like to be bullied and will only listen and respect you ONLY after you earn theirs.

3. Cesar is in no way a dog professional in any sense, he is a very good showmen. Hence you will see a disclaimer before and during the show stating to consult a "professional" before implementing any techniques shown on the show. The disclaimer was forced on National Geographic due to a lot of pressure from the dog professional industry.

Also solitaryhowl if you want to see an out take of how he "handled" a difficult husky mix go to this link.

i will let you make the judgement of whether he was provoking Shadow of if Shadow was truly being an ass.

Sorry for the long post and I am just one opinion out of many but if you do like watching his show by all means do so but keep in mind this is just entertainment.

I'm going to reply to your points in general - not just directly at you, but in general response, because these are frequent points that are raised in this discussion. My opinion is this:

1. I sort of agree with this. Letting a dog walk ahead of you doesn't always mean dominance, but note too that working is entirely different. Even Cesar allows dogs to run ahead and pull him on rollerblades. But ensuring that when you are walking and maintaining control there is no reason to let your dog walk ahead of you where it is the first one to confront/decide how to confront people/animals/situations, not to mention they are easier to handle beside you. If you read any of Cesar's books, he makes it quite clear that you aren't walking the dog like that the entire walk - of course they should get to have a loose leash to wander ahead, sniff trees, pee on stuff and enjoy the walk. But not when you're walking with intent and need to be in control. And you need to know you have that control for when you DO need it. The show has never claimed to be a how-to guide for anything. It shows what Cesar does to work with dogs. It's not a guide on how to walk your dog or train your dog. People are going to take what they will from the show and use it however they see fit - do not attempt disclaimer or no! If no one was allowed to put anything on tv that people might emulate, there would BE no tv!

2. Taking control isn't necessarily bullying. I find that (for the most part) he is extremely good with body language and backing off at the right moments. Sometimes he makes mistakes (and I find that he's usually pretty open about them) and sometimes he does press too hard - but remember, it's a tv show, and tv show needs drama and excitement. That's not justification, nor do I condone it, but it's the reality of tv. I've watched the oft-worshiped Victoria Stilwell's show too, and she will allow a dog to repeatedly attack and bite a person just so she can "see" it and so they can get some good film footage for the show, so anyone that puts her up on a pedestal should be sharply reminded that she is just as much an entertainer as Cesar is.

Most dogs do want leadership from their owners, and it does require respect be earned. Taking control of a situation and telling a dog "no, you damned well aren't going to attack that lamp" with body language and sending it out of the room is not bullying. For god's sake, there are people who break into tears when someone says "no" to their dog. They let their dog attack strangers because they don't want to "bully" their dog by telling it "no" and that it's being a complete jackass. They'd rather let their children get bit than be "mean" to their dog.

3. I'm actually kind of sick of people saying Cesar isn't a professional. The definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do a certain occupation. He gets paid to train dogs, therefore he is a professional. If he didn't get results, he wouldn't have thousands of clients and his own tv show. He wouldn't have his rescue centre. So what if he hasn't had any "formal" training? Exactly which school is "the" school that would give him an accreditation that everyone recognizes and approves of?

People always seem to assume that Cesar merely goes off of his "intuitive" knowledge and personal experience. I highly doubt that. By all appearances, he is always learning and often seeks advice from other trainers. I'm sure he read up on all sorts of training methods and the trainers-du-jour. He promotes and encourages the use of local trainers and behaviourists over contacting him. Maybe it's all a front, but I think it's convincing and refreshing the way that he openly shows interest and acknowledges other trainers.

The video: I don't think he's provoking the dog at all. He's putting Shadow in the situation where Shadow does what he does - turns on his owner, leaping and biting in frustration to get to another dog. This is the problem with the dog - he does this day in and day out to his owners, who were incapable of fixing the behaviour. Cesar shows him - through repeated attempts to walk by, that his tantrums are ineffective and get him nothing, and that the jumping and biting is not acceptable. The dog continues, and finally Cesar puts him in a "dominance down" so he can calm the hell down.

Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with the use of the choke chain. He keeps tension on the leash to keep the dog from biting him - as it is it isn't 100% effective as protection. The dogs gets a release when it's calm. It's looks awful, but what no one seems to see is that it is Shadow who is doing it. He's apparently a dog who is so used to doing this to people that it's his go-to move when he can't get after another dog! Cesar isn't making him leap up and bite him. Cesar isn't making him thrash against the leash. The dog resents the leash and the handler and reacts accordingly. Shadow is also not used to the leash being placed behind the head - which offers a hell of a lot more control and can indeed choke them. But when he stops struggling, he stops the pressure. I have no sympathy for the dog.

Are there other ways this could be handled? Certainly. I'm sure Victoria would be cramming treats in the dog's face so that he focused on that instead of the other dog. That's all well and good - so long as you have the treats! And this is also not just a minor case and a dog that excitable and reactive is not likely to be distracted by tasty tidbits.

Shadow doesn't get up with his tail between his legs, utterly terrified of what Cesar is going to do next. He wasn't stiff with fear or pinned forcibly to the ground. Did they progress too far too fast in order to get Shadow's full reaction for the camera? I'd bet they did. Doesn't make it right, but there it is.

[Dunc]

Seen a couple of the shows and am not keen on his approach to training

[Ravenwolf]

Well here is a nice video by Dr. L. David Mech stating why all that alpha dominance is BS

I get what he's saying, but at the same time, it still doesn't matter. A term is a term. On the one hand, he acknowledges that wolves form a pecking order and in a situation where they are all unrelated one will emerge as the leader.

On the other hand he says that the breeding pair are only the leaders by virtue of being the parents. That may be true, but they are still the leaders who guide the family and enforce the rules. Those who don't like it are driven out, or leave without contest. What he says could almost be misconstrued as the pack obeying purely out of respect and homage to their biological parents, and that's BS. They were raised obeying their parents so it comes much easier for them, but the alpha pair still enforce their authority. The breeding female still prevents any other females from breeding, ferociously if necessary.

I'm glad he brought up the examples of Yellowstone, but - though I am no wolf biologist - I fail to see how it isn't applicable beyond the confines of the park. While it's true that packs having more than one breeding pair are highly unusual and the unique circumstances of Yellowstone permit this luxury, packs do not always consist of family. Vagrants are absorbed into packs on a capricious basis and must earn their place in the hierarchy. The breeding pair determines territory and the protection of such. When a death occurs in a pack, who is to be the new leader when daddy's gone? Is it put to a vote?

To me, what he says about the unusual circumstance of unrelated wolves being put together - as in captivity - is the part that is relevant to our dogs. We aren't related to our dogs - most of the time our other dogs aren't related to them either. When an adult dog is introduced into our family, it needs to learn who is the accepted boss, where they fit in the family unit and what the rules of living in this territory are. When a puppy is raised with us, it needs to learn the rules of life in our home, who to accept as leader and where they fit in the family unit.

Our dogs wouldn't stay with us and love us if we didn't provide them with food and security. They also seek guidance, and when they don't get it they end up with problems.

Call it leadership, respect, alpha dominance, breeding pair - I don't care. The end result is the same. Someone leads, the rest follow because it is in their best interests to do so.

[Bec]

I think CM's methods work to some extent for him, but they don't translate well when others try to use them. Realistically, using tired 'dominance' methods like the alpha roll are methods and a line of thinking we have really progressed past.

[Povodny]

I never heard of Victoria Stillwell...must be a UK thing?

I saw that episode too! Grr....

Dominance/Alpha-ness has some role to play when it comes to dog behaviour, but its not everything like Cesar makes it out to be. Also, dog behaviour is similar to wolf behaviour, but only to a point and then it differs greatly.

This is typically seen at the dog park where you can see groups or 'packs' of dogs in action. Dog 'packs' do not behave like wolf packs at all - they don't 'follow the leader', nor does there seem to be any organization.

With a wild wolf pack, the pack structure is organized and generally you can easily determine which ones are the breeding pair (I HATE the term Alpha! Alpha implies that wolves fight for their 'position'. They don't - they're usually the parents of the other wolves! A pack is a family!). They commonly use physical force to maintain their position as the 'Alpha' (for lack of a better term) such as biting/snarling or doing the famous 'Alpha roll' that some dog owners use. This is wolf behaviour and not dog behaviour.

If you look at the dog park, I've NEVER seen another dog perform the 'alpha' roll on another dog. NEVER and I've been going there steadily for 3 years. When Suka wants to display his dominance (he's a dominant boy with other dogs), he usually just does some posturing and some humping. Granted, fights do break out but they aren't nearly as vicious as wolf fights and they fizzle out quickly. That's not what wolves do when they want to express their dominance (see above paragraph.)

And Cesar Millan would have you believe that dog behaviour is EXACTLY like wolf behaviour. Really? I call bull'poo' on that one!

Victoria is English and had an English based programme, she lives in America and does mainly American television now

[Povodny]

I've watched quite a few of both Caesar and Victoria, the thing I noticed is Caesar seems to have a 'one size fits all' technique to training. Reguardless of situation, breed characteristics and environment. On the other hand, Victoria takes these factors into consideration when deciding on what training needs doing. And that includes owners as well as dogs

I'm not taking sides, just making an observation

[Synphny]

Then let me reply to ravenwolf on this discussion.

1. I have never read any of Cesar's book only watched couple of his shows. I was only remarking what I heard on his show now maybe later on in his book or in some other episodes that he further clarifies that entire concept then all the better for his own knowledge as well as his audience.

2. Bullying is a form of control but not all controls comes from bullying. What I have problem with Cesar is the fact he floods the dog with a sometimes specific trauma or trigger of bad behaviors to get them numb or break their spirit. Now I personally don't care for this and maybe under specific condition it might work. However Cesar never clarifies in his show that this method works for this condition ONLY he never says that. He lets the owners and the audience believe that this psychological bullying is to be used for EVERY difficult situation not on a case by case. If this type of tactic is used for every infraction I would count this as bullying in every sense. Its as if your parent decides to beat you with a belt from a tiny infraction of not tying your shoes to flunking a class. You would be too afraid to do anything,

Now I totally do agree with you that dogs needs leadership and the a posturing of the body as well as accompany by a stern "NO" works great. But you mention that some people thinks that telling no to a dog is bullying I consider it discipline there is no physical trauma nor any mental anguish inflicted upon the dog.

3. As for Cesar not being a professional let me clarify this some more. He is a professional promoter and a great actor just not a dog trainer professional. But your right he get paid really really well. Even you mention in your post that his show is not a guide on how to walk or train your dog its a TV show where he is the host that gained knowledge and proper techniques (remember Cesar did not pioneer any of these techniques or methods) from other dog trainers.

With that being said every profession therein lies a certain liability if you are a accountant for a client and the client get arrested by the IRS the accountant has a lawsuit on their hand. That is why on his TV show there is a huge disclaimer throughout to avoid such liability. I am at this point just playing the devils advocate pointing out that with that disclaimer he is able to pass off the liability to someone else while maintaining a pristine marketable image. I'm pretty sure that Cesar has a genuine intent to help dog owners to get their dogs properly trained he is just not willing to risk undercutting his profit.

Lastly about the video, although that portion is only 6 minutes long however in actuality it took 24min to provoke shadow to the point of attacking Cesar on that episode. The only reason I know this is that I know the man who adopted shadow after Cesar said that shadow was not trainable. http://www.wolfman.com/

This is his website along with Shadow also go back and look carefully over the video again I know its grainy and it sucks but pay attention at 2:08- 2:11 watch Cesar's right leg as he kicks Shadow while Shadow was not aggressive or misbehaving in any way I would love hear your point of view of what was the point of that dominance training that was suppose to help shadow?

[Synphny]

I get what he's saying, but at the same time, it still doesn't matter. A term is a term. On the one hand, he acknowledges that wolves form a pecking order and in a situation where they are all unrelated one will emerge as the leader.

On the other hand he says that the breeding pair are only the leaders by virtue of being the parents. That may be true, but they are still the leaders who guide the family and enforce the rules. Those who don't like it are driven out, or leave without contest. What he says could almost be misconstrued as the pack obeying purely out of respect and homage to their biological parents, and that's BS. They were raised obeying their parents so it comes much easier for them, but the alpha pair still enforce their authority. The breeding female still prevents any other females from breeding, ferociously if necessary.

I'm glad he brought up the examples of Yellowstone, but - though I am no wolf biologist - I fail to see how it isn't applicable beyond the confines of the park. While it's true that packs having more than one breeding pair are highly unusual and the unique circumstances of Yellowstone permit this luxury, packs do not always consist of family. Vagrants are absorbed into packs on a capricious basis and must earn their place in the hierarchy. The breeding pair determines territory and the protection of such. When a death occurs in a pack, who is to be the new leader when daddy's gone? Is it put to a vote?

To me, what he says about the unusual circumstance of unrelated wolves being put together - as in captivity - is the part that is relevant to our dogs. We aren't related to our dogs - most of the time our other dogs aren't related to them either. When an adult dog is introduced into our family, it needs to learn who is the accepted boss, where they fit in the family unit and what the rules of living in this territory are. When a puppy is raised with us, it needs to learn the rules of life in our home, who to accept as leader and where they fit in the family unit.

Our dogs wouldn't stay with us and love us if we didn't provide them with food and security. They also seek guidance, and when they don't get it they end up with problems.

Call it leadership, respect, alpha dominance, breeding pair - I don't care. The end result is the same. Someone leads, the rest follow because it is in their best interests to do so.

Although the end result is the same with a leader and follower the path of how to achieve it in relation to Cesar's methods is very different. Most natural occuring packs do not employ flooding techniques, the leader do not employ the rolling over of the belly at every chance. Most parents of the pack will employ subtle ways body posturing, facial expressions, nippings before going to the last resort and it is an exhausting method which would might end up costing them their lives.

Also another reason alpha dominance in a sense of I control every aspect is very contradictory in what we ask our working dogs to do. Example for huskies, we the humans give up "dominance" as you would put it to stop leading while we allow our followers the sled dogs to guide us during a white out. I don't think at any point the sled dogs is thinking that you fell out of the alpha ranking and now they are going to figure it out all over again. This concept is not mine but I read it in a book called "Common Sense" I forgot the author but he wrote in length of how this alpha dominance theory has some major flaws.

[Povodny]

Although the end result is the same with a leader and follower the path of how to achieve it in relation to Cesar's methods is very different. Most natural occuring packs do not employ flooding techniques, the leader do not employ the rolling over of the belly at every chance. Most parents of the pack will employ subtle ways body posturing, facial expressions, nippings before going to the last resort and it is an exhausting method which would might end up costing them their lives.

Also another reason alpha dominance in a sense of I control every aspect is very contradictory in what we ask our working dogs to do. Example for huskies, we the humans give up "dominance" as you would put it to stop leading while we allow our followers the sled dogs to guide us during a white out. I don't think at any point the sled dogs is thinking that you fell out of the alpha ranking and now they are going to figure it out all over again. This concept is not mine but I read it in a book called "Common Sense" I forgot the author but he wrote in length of how this alpha dominance theory has some major flaws.

I followed your link, I'm happy shadow is now in a loving and understanding home with his BFF

[Laine]

I always feel like I type out the same old thing when if comes to Cesar Millan, so I'ma just summarize in point form:

- I agree with many of his techniques and respect what he does. But also never forget that it's - at the end of the day - a tv show.

- Not everyone is 100% correct/perfect and I don't agree with everything he does, and I don't expect anyone agrees with everything anyone does.

- Not everything in life can be solved with treats and love and positive reinforcement. It is a combination of techniques that work, and I like that Cesar will employ different techniques based on different dogs' needs.

The problem with this being "at the end of the day a TV show" is that people assume TV = reality and will try to do what they see, especially if it comes from a professional that might help their situation. Disclaimers don't mean anything to the people who have a problem dog and think CM's methods work. The thing is, they do work, both on TV and off, but some of the people who get them to work end up breaking their dog in the process. THEY are not professionals, but assume if CM can do this, anyone can and that is the dangerous part.

Your second point I agree with.

Your third point I also believe with, to a point. However I've seen enough proof that CM actually instigates the dogs into misbehaving instead of letting it happen naturally, and he does it totally wrong - as evidence by the Shadow video which if anyone else had done it would have been decried as animal abuse - to disagree with you on this. There are some dogs, however, that nothing you can do will train them, unless you break them and then they're not trained, they're broken. The ideal way to train, in my opinion, is with positive reinforcement AND negative reinforcement. Treats, words of praise, pats, tug/toy games combined with "no", refusal of treats, ignoring the dog and the use of pinch and yes, even e-collars are things that can be used to train your dog and in some cases need be, depending if you've got a hard or soft dog.

2. Taking control isn't necessarily bullying. I find that (for the most part) he is extremely good with body language and backing off at the right moments. Sometimes he makes mistakes (and I find that he's usually pretty open about them) and sometimes he does press too hard - but remember, it's a tv show, and tv show needs drama and excitement. That's not justification, nor do I condone it, but it's the reality of tv. I've watched the oft-worshiped Victoria Stilwell's show too, and she will allow a dog to repeatedly attack and bite a person just so she can "see" it and so they can get some good film footage for the show, so anyone that puts her up on a pedestal should be sharply reminded that she is just as much an entertainer as Cesar is.

I agree, control isn't bullying, but Reality TV show or not, making drama for the sake of the show only increases not only his own pocket in the way of cash to undo what owners have done, but make for abused dogs when said owners try to do what he's done on TV. I've never seen Victoria's show but I will say this: putting a dog in a situation that sets it off so a professional can see what the dog does is one thing. Deliberately provoking a response when the dog is giving nothing in a situation that usually provokes it is something else totally. You are purposfully pushing the dog to freak out instead of letting it do so naturally, which will do nothing for you because the situation is now not the same for the dog, so all the signals, all the body language and everything the dog would normally have is not there. This is the problem I have with CM.

Most dogs do want leadership from their owners, and it does require respect be earned. Taking control of a situation and telling a dog "no, you damned well aren't going to attack that lamp" with body language and sending it out of the room is not bullying. For god's sake, there are people who break into tears when someone says "no" to their dog. They let their dog attack strangers because they don't want to "bully" their dog by telling it "no" and that it's being a complete jackass. They'd rather let their children get bit than be "mean" to their dog.

Agreed, and I hate people who baby their dogs. I hate seeing dogs in jumpers and baby clothes just because "it's cute" and "they're my baby". I hate people who over-excessive baby talk to their dog like the dog understands them. I hate people who let their dogs do whatever they want, or say it's ok for other dogs to do things because "I just love animals". No, if an owner says their dog can't do a thing, they can't. They are the owner, not you. I tell my dogs no all the time around strangers or at home. There is a certain way I want them to behave and they will do it at all times regardless. If they don't, they're "punished" by either us going home or getting no free time in the house.

3. I'm actually kind of sick of people saying Cesar isn't a professional. The definition of a professional is someone who gets paid to do a certain occupation. He gets paid to train dogs, therefore he is a professional. If he didn't get results, he wouldn't have thousands of clients and his own tv show. He wouldn't have his rescue centre. So what if he hasn't had any "formal" training? Exactly which school is "the" school that would give him an accreditation that everyone recognizes and approves of?

He's a professional salesman, but even he's admitted he's not a professional dog trainer. I think part of the reason he gets clients for his show is for the egos of people wanting to be on TV. The thing that bothers me most about this post is this: "So what if he hasn't had any "formal" training?" So you would be okay with a doctor not having formal training being allowed to diagnose you? You'd be okay with a plumber who had no trade school credentials coming in to fix your plumbing? I could go on and on but this is how that one phrase comes across to me. If he wants to be a dog trainer, he should become a true dog trainer, and formally recognized as such. That he's not, and people don't seem to care, just... burns my behind. Especially with people like Michael Ellis and Susan Garrett offering courses for the general public to attend to learn how to train their dogs, and how they go to seminars, and how they train other people to teach what they've learned and those people go on to teach others. Unfortunately there is no "School" for dog trainers and the closest thing there is for organization is the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, in which you have to join, pay fees and meet requirements. Even then there is probably those who follow CM's way of training instead of other, just as proven and not as abusive ways.

The video: I don't think he's provoking the dog at all. He's putting Shadow in the situation where Shadow does what he does - turns on his owner, leaping and biting in frustration to get to another dog. This is the problem with the dog - he does this day in and day out to his owners, who were incapable of fixing the behaviour. Cesar shows him - through repeated attempts to walk by, that his tantrums are ineffective and get him nothing, and that the jumping and biting is not acceptable. The dog continues, and finally Cesar puts him in a "dominance down" so he can calm the hell down.

Quite frankly, I don't have a problem with the use of the choke chain. He keeps tension on the leash to keep the dog from biting him - as it is it isn't 100% effective as protection. The dogs gets a release when it's calm. It's looks awful, but what no one seems to see is that it is Shadow who is doing it. He's apparently a dog who is so used to doing this to people that it's his go-to move when he can't get after another dog! Cesar isn't making him leap up and bite him. Cesar isn't making him thrash against the leash. The dog resents the leash and the handler and reacts accordingly. Shadow is also not used to the leash being placed behind the head - which offers a hell of a lot more control and can indeed choke them. But when he stops struggling, he stops the pressure. I have no sympathy for the dog.

Are there other ways this could be handled? Certainly. I'm sure Victoria would be cramming treats in the dog's face so that he focused on that instead of the other dog. That's all well and good - so long as you have the treats! And this is also not just a minor case and a dog that excitable and reactive is not likely to be distracted by tasty tidbits.

Shadow doesn't get up with his tail between his legs, utterly terrified of what Cesar is going to do next. He wasn't stiff with fear or pinned forcibly to the ground. Did they progress too far too fast in order to get Shadow's full reaction for the camera? I'd bet they did. Doesn't make it right, but there it is.

Again, if you look at the video as posted, just SIXTEEN SECONDS IN pause it and look at the dog and CM. Look at where CM's right foot is. That is not "putting Shadow in the situation where Shadow does what he does" that is kicking the dog to get a reaction. He did not let things happen naturally, he forced the issue. And CM's "solution" is to choke the dog when the dog doesn't start behaving as he wants. It also happens at 2:56; he kicks the dog again.

I don't have a problem with the use of a choke chain or pinch either. It's the proper knowledge of how to use it that people need to know, and it's clear CM does NOT have this knowledge. If he did he would have had a secondary leash attached to his collar because he would know that pinches can sometimes break when used on a dog doing quick movements. It also doesn't look like the pinch is in the correct placement which would only serve to aggravate the dog, not help it. biggest thing is using the pinch on the dog at all; he's a known aggressive, why would he use something that can instigate aggression on an aggressive dog, especially doing a primary evaluation or putting the dog into the stressful situation that sets it off? Does not make sense.

And in this situation, treas would have done SFA on a dog that has never been positive trained with food, so of course Victoria's efforts with treats would have failed. You're right in that in this case, treats of any kind would not work to distract this dog.

That dog was choked so badly he had problem swallowing, I would be thrashing about too in that situation, just so I could swallow/breathe! He's not pinned forcibly because he was choked and dropped on his own from lack of oxygen. Look at his gums when he's laying down, the foam, that is not normal. His legs twitch after, again not normal. His excuse that it was a "domiant" issue is absolute BS.

And honestly, the fact that people just casually "oh it happened, but that's how it goes" kind of thing is just... more than infuriating. They are dismissing blatant, publicized animal abuse. This should never have happened and if they had to push it like this for the Camera... how dare they!

I'll stop there because if I do more this'll get longer and I'll get more mad at it. Suffice to say watching this video, again, has proven to me CM is not just a clueless wackadoodle and no professional dog trainer, he is dangerous, he is an absuer and nothing he says or does will have truth to it unless he changes his way of doing everything.

[Ravenwolf]

I've watched quite a few of both Caesar and Victoria, the thing I noticed is Caesar seems to have a 'one size fits all' technique to training. Reguardless of situation, breed characteristics and environment. On the other hand, Victoria takes these factors into consideration when deciding on what training needs doing. And that includes owners as well as dogs

I'm not taking sides, just making an observation

See, and I don't get that at all. It is true that in a lot of cases he can use cookie-cutter methods, such as claiming a doorway and not opening the door until the dog stops barking and calms down, but sometimes that's seriously all that's needed. A person can have a completely unmanageable dog, but Cesar comes in and essentially says "don't do that" and the dog - who has never truly had anyone say that before and mean it - just says "oh. Okay." Hell, I can do and have done that with some people's dogs!

But with other dogs I find that I can be amazed by the creative techniques to help solve the dogs issue. He actually does use food-based reward when it's warranted and has done a variety of other exercises to get a dog to respond.

[Ravenwolf]

Laine - I'm going to just tag you in this response because I think it addresses most of the comments I would also use to reply to your post. You are right in the clarification that Cesar is not a trainer and doesn't claim to be - he addresses behaviour, for the most part.

Then let me reply to ravenwolf on this discussion.

2. Bullying is a form of control but not all controls comes from bullying. What I have problem with Cesar is the fact he floods the dog with a sometimes specific trauma or trigger of bad behaviors to get them numb or break their spirit. Now I personally don't care for this and maybe under specific condition it might work. However Cesar never clarifies in his show that this method works for this condition ONLY he never says that. He lets the owners and the audience believe that this psychological bullying is to be used for EVERY difficult situation not on a case by case. If this type of tactic is used for every infraction I would count this as bullying in every sense. Its as if your parent decides to beat you with a belt from a tiny infraction of not tying your shoes to flunking a class. You would be too afraid to do anything,

Now I totally do agree with you that dogs needs leadership and the a posturing of the body as well as accompany by a stern "NO" works great. But you mention that some people thinks that telling no to a dog is bullying I consider it discipline there is no physical trauma nor any mental anguish inflicted upon the dog.

I have mixed opinions on flooding. I have not ever had to deal with a severe fear issue where major flooding would be an option for solution. It does look rather traumatic, but I don't have the tools to deal with an issue like that (meaning I don't know what other methods might work). What I can say is that flooding in mild fear cases is extremely effective - it's our go-to move with horses, a lot of who as prey animals can have the mentality that every strange thing is terrifying. Scary tarp? We tie the tarp outside their pen and let it flap until they realize it won't hurt them. Terrifying corner of an arena? We go hang out over there until it's not so bad.

I've used it with my own dogs - most recently Scout, who developed an inexplicable fear of one particular section of our linoleum - we suspect he slipped and fell there. For the most part we ignored the behaviour and just made it so that he had to cross the linoleum to get reward - we would only pet him if he crossed it, he got fed on the other side, etc. At the beginning when he refused to cross it I tried putting the leash on him and forcing him to walk across the linoleum. He hated it, but once we stopped him in the middle of the scary area and had him just sit there and chill, things improved. He still tiptoes across that area, but he's getting better - he will cross it on his own, and he doesn't scramble across like before.

But again, I've never dealt with an extreme issue. I think flooding can prevent a fear from becoming so extreme that you need to move to traumatic flooding or other options, but since I've never dealt with that, nor likely would I feel capable of dealing with that kind of thing.

3. As for Cesar not being a professional let me clarify this some more. He is a professional promoter and a great actor just not a dog trainer professional. But your right he get paid really really well. Even you mention in your post that his show is not a guide on how to walk or train your dog its a TV show where he is the host that gained knowledge and proper techniques (remember Cesar did not pioneer any of these techniques or methods) from other dog trainers.

With that being said every profession therein lies a certain liability if you are a accountant for a client and the client get arrested by the IRS the accountant has a lawsuit on their hand. That is why on his TV show there is a huge disclaimer throughout to avoid such liability. I am at this point just playing the devils advocate pointing out that with that disclaimer he is able to pass off the liability to someone else while maintaining a pristine marketable image. I'm pretty sure that Cesar has a genuine intent to help dog owners to get their dogs properly trained he is just not willing to risk undercutting his profit.

Cesar didn't get his start with the tv show. He had a successful business working with dogs - to the point where he was "the" trainer to go to for famous people. Not sure whether the show was his idea or if he was approached with the show concept, but who turns down an opportunity like that?

Cesar does have a liability with his clients. Not Average Joe who watches tv and tries to shove their aggressive dog in another dog's face because that's what they think they saw on tv. There are reality shows on all sorts of jobs and undertakings - if someone thinks they're qualified to be a lion tamer because they saw a tv special on it, well, that is not the program's problem unless it was called "do it yourself lion-taming." The disclaimer is a reminder for idiots. If a person is stupid enough to watch an episode where Cesar handles and aggressive dog then feels qualified to tackle their neighbour's problem dog, the only person they can blame is themself.

Lastly about the video, although that portion is only 6 minutes long however in actuality it took 24min to provoke shadow to the point of attacking Cesar on that episode. The only reason I know this is that I know the man who adopted shadow after Cesar said that shadow was not trainable. http://www.wolfman.com/

This is his website along with Shadow also go back and look carefully over the video again I know its grainy and it sucks but pay attention at 2:08- 2:11 watch Cesar's right leg as he kicks Shadow while Shadow was not aggressive or misbehaving in any way I would love hear your point of view of what was the point of that dominance training that was suppose to help shadow?

Yes, I saw the 'kick' - they show it again at 2:57. I don't see it as a kick - when Shadow locks onto the other dog, Cesar "kicks" it to snap him out of it - which it does, but the dog explodes. I don't see Shadow turning on him in a fury because he injured him - the touch surprised Shadow and he released all that pent up energy that he was ready to release on the other dog. He turned it on his handler which is what he was doing to his owners that was the problem.

This is the same thing that I mean when I talk about people need to learn about understanding cues from their dogs before the dogs react inappropriately. Why the hell would Cesar wait for the dog to lunge at the other one and deal with a full blown reaction when he could catch the dog when it first focuses on its target? I don't have an issue with using a foot to redirect a dog's attention. That video does not show a vicious kick - it's the same as jabbing a person in the shoulder and saying "hey!" I've prevented dogs from biting other dogs by being able to issue a correction - either with the leash or a touch with my hand or foot - before the dog performed the bite. Dogs are very obvious in what they are going to do if you know what to look for.

I've seen the entire episode - I feel that the timeframe more supports better handling of the situation than refutes it. You're now saying they are showing the worst blowouts in a 24-minute training exercise instead of the quiet sections where only minor (read: boring) corrections were necessary. I highly doubt they walked a perfectly well-behaved Shadow back and forth for 20 minutes, agitating him and kicking him until he reacted like that!

I haven't seen it in awhile, but I don't recall Cesar saying Shadow was untrainable. He may have said the dog was not suitable for that family, but that doesn't look like a behaviour Cesar would be incapable of correcting...

Your friend never says on his website what was wrong with Shadow, only that:

"Shadow – A smallish Malamute, was almost a perfect dog when I first fostered him, loved my dogs and fitted in really well. I adopted him out to a family and I got him back after 6 months. He reportedly had developed some major issues. I have had him for over 1 1/2 years now, he initially had some dominance issues at the dog park, but we got over that, he behaves pretty well now, and he walks relatively well with my pack. He still has severe separation anxiety, and can get very frustrated when he gets bored."

So that family only had Shadow for 6 months and he escalated to that point that quickly. It just shows that family was severely ill-equipped to deal with that kind of dog - even your Wolfman points out Shadow gets very frustrated when bored. It just sounds like he knows how to deal with that while that family did not have a clue.

[Tams Teeko and Keeta]

Well here is a nice video by Dr. L. David Mech stating why all that alpha dominance is BS

Good find! :-)

I hate the way some (not all) dog people...trainers, owners, the lot...including on occassion my own OH...insist on throwing around the term Alpha like its the be all and end all of all communications with dogs.

[Michelle Melsom]

I can say I hate CM, I think he is a huge tool and hes in it for the money. I do like Victoria Ive been watching her show recently and I think shes pretty awesome I do like another trainer as well but I have to deviate from his training becasue I need to use treats for handling classes has worked up until that bit lol. I also think different methods work for different dogs too so the way one trainer does it will work for you while the way another does it wont type thing.

[Rosemary]

Another great thread

[Synphny]

Let me reply to those points:

1.Cesar does have a liability with his clients. Not Average Joe who watches tv and tries to shove their aggressive dog in another dog's face because that's what they think they saw on tv. There are reality shows on all sorts of jobs and undertakings - if someone thinks they're qualified to be a lion tamer because they saw a tv special on it, well, that is not the program's problem unless it was called "do it yourself lion-taming." The disclaimer is a reminder for idiots. If a person is stupid enough to watch an episode where Cesar handles and aggressive dog then feels qualified to tackle their neighbour's problem dog, the only person they can blame is themself.

Cesar has limited liability with his clients off the show,if you go to any dog trainer they would make you sign a contract with some concept of the wording of "I am only responsible up to training your dog in my class or within my presence for following behavior(s) and therefore not responsible for any behavior(s) beyond the scope of the training and it will be the responsibilities of the owners to continue the proper training techniques after my class."

I would also figure for National Geographic to insist their clients sign some sort of disclosure form before filming so they can't take them to court.

2. Yes, I saw the 'kick' - they show it again at 2:57. I don't see it as a kick - when Shadow locks onto the other dog, Cesar "kicks" it to snap him out of it - which it does, but the dog explodes. I don't see Shadow turning on him in a fury because he injured him - the touch surprised Shadow and he released all that pent up energy that he was ready to release on the other dog. He turned it on his handler which is what he was doing to his owners that was the problem.

This is the problem I have with Cesar's method he not only has the strength and the intelligence to control and recognize the cue that Shadow was displaying He could have easily turn shadow away and let me him get used to the other dogs by doing it slowly and with repeated attempts. He has done this techniques before but in this situation he merely wanted to make it more dramatic and over sensationalize a big bad wolf.

3.I haven't seen it in awhile, but I don't recall Cesar saying Shadow was untrainable. He may have said the dog was not suitable for that family, but that doesn't look like a behaviour Cesar would be incapable of correcting...

Well as for the quote un-trainable part was spoken to Jim off the show he just merely mention it to me in private.

Your friend never says on his website what was wrong with Shadow, only that:

"Shadow – A smallish Malamute, was almost a perfect dog when I first fostered him, loved my dogs and fitted in really well. I adopted him out to a family and I got him back after 6 months. He reportedly had developed some major issues. I have had him for over 1 1/2 years now, he initially had some dominance issues at the dog park, but we got over that, he behaves pretty well now, and he walks relatively well with my pack. He still has severe separation anxiety, and can get very frustrated when he gets bored."

Well you just kind of listed the problems with that quote.

[Lavs]

wow i did not expect to start such a massive debate! lovin' the opinions! who's this victoria lady? can anyone find a vid clip and throw it on here? i've never heard of her.

[Elyse]

wow i did not expect to start such a massive debate! lovin' the opinions! who's this victoria lady? can anyone find a vid clip and throw it on here? i've never heard of her.

Here are a few episodes: http://www.youtube.com/show/meorthedog

Haven't watched any yet, though, gotta finish this biology essay...

[Rosemary]

wow i did not expect to start such a massive debate! lovin' the opinions!

A good constructive debate with opposing views is an excellent way to learn. People like me, who are clueless, learn A LOT from them It makes us think, and sort out for ourself, which side of the fence we are on

[Lavs]

Here are a few episodes: http://www.youtube.com/show/meorthedog

Haven't watched any yet, though, gotta finish this biology essay...

won't let canadians watch...."the uploader has made this video unavailable in your country"

[mydiamond]

won't let canadians watch...."the uploader has made this video unavailable in your country"

:eek: I really hate that sentence x_x made me feel like I'm living in such a remote place like Narnia >.>

[Elyse]

won't let canadians watch...."the uploader has made this video unavailable in your country"

[Removed #5]

won't let canadians watch...."the uploader has made this video unavailable in your country"

I can't see them either, so let's say not just the Canadians, let's say Americans in general ... (( getting myself in trouble here, yes, Canadians are Americans as well! ))

[Lavs]

I can't see them either, so let's say not just the Canadians, let's say Americans in general ... (( getting myself in trouble here, yes, Canadians are Americans as well! ))

i suppose yeah, continent wise...norther north americans lol