Hopeless - Can't stand to watch you burn

[Ravenwolf]

I don't know what to do. Really, there's nothing more I can do, but I can't stand to watch this any more. It just kills me.

For the past 4 months I've been trying to help my sister get her finances in order. Long story short, she has accrued significant consumer debt over the years. Now she's gone back to school to attempt to further her career - which is great but it is only putting her further in the hole.

Since I work in financial management, we create and assess the budgets for several government ministries which are in the millions of dollars each. I manage my family finances, and my husband and I are very successful conscientious spending and have never carried debt other than student loans (now paid off), mortgage and most recently a car loan that we picked up because we could afford the payments - prior to last year we drove cars that cost no more than 2,000$ each, always paid in cash. When we made less, we did with less. We rented basement suites, drove beaters, and fine dining was a bucket of KFC.

So I know a thing or two about managing money and living on a tight budget.

I provided my sister with a spreadsheet to show her earnings, expenses and spending. I put her on a plan for debt reduction. I identified to her exactly how much debt she had, and how much she would be paying in total if she hoped to pay it off in 5 years.

After the 3rd month of using the spreadsheet, I've revised her numbers. If she keeps spending the way she does, she will be another 6,000$ in debt by December. Instead of spending less, she has consistently increased her spending each month I've been trying to help her.

Watching my sister screw herself over royally is stressing me out like you wouldn't believe. Part of it is that I just can't understand how a person could do that to themselves.

She will not compromise. She justifies all her expenses. If she wants a coffee, she'll buy a damned coffee. If she's hungry, she can't just not eat right? To the tune of anywhere from 65$ to 120$ a month in fast food and coffee. Her spending budget making MINIMUM payments on her debt load (read: only paying interest and nothing towards principle) leaves her with 100$/month in spending money. But she also needs to get her hair cut and dyed (110$), needs to get her nails done (45$), and needs just about every other purchase totalling over 700$ in frivolous spending.

Then she gets mad at me and cries because I was "so mean" in the way I told her and I need to "put it in a nicer way." How do you nicely tell a person "you cannot afford the life you are living. You have no spending money because you decided to go back to school. You are digging yourself deeper."

To top it all off, she just got married 6 months ago. So her husband married into all this debt. He quit his self-employed job as a farrier and took a ranch hand job with ridiculous hours that has him spending half his nights away from home so that he had a consistent and steady income in order to support her through school. There is obviously stress between them because of this. The number one reason people divorce is money issues. It's easy to see why. She could easily drag him down the road to bankruptcy. Gods help them initially they wanted to combine their finances! Fortunately I talked them out of it and showed them a reasonable alternative, but to date it has not been used.

So basically, I feel like I've been totally wasting my time. Hours of calculations, recalculations, arguments, explanations and general stress to the point of tears, and still nothing has been learned. She's my sister and I don't want to give up on her, but I'm about there. You can't make a person change, and I don't know what's going to trigger her into a harsh sense of reality. I don't want to see my own sister so far into debt that she can't get out. I want to help but instead I feel like the scapegoat - somehow all this strife is my fault.

OMG that's long enough. *sigh* Cookies if you actually read it all, but at least it feels better having got it off my chest.

[SA DA KA]

RAVENWOLF, EVERY THING YOU STATED HOLDS SO MUCH MERIT. TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND WE WILL TAKE ONE FOR YOU TOO.

HUSKY LOVERS IN VERMONT

[Elyse]

I feel bad, Raven, but there's nothing you can do for your sister if she won't listen to you. My Dad's brother is the same way, though not heavily in debt, he continues to have money issues because he HAS to get that or his world will end. Sometimes I wanna smack my uncle, but I can't do that cause he's family...

By the way, off topic, but what's your name? It feels awkward calling you by your username all the time, even though when I first joined here I found it awkward to call people by their first names! Funny how these forums corrupt you...

[RuRu]

I commend your commitment to helping your sister (and her new hubby).

It appears to me that you have really tried with her but now you should sit back and wait to see if she has learnt anything - if she actually gets deeper and comes running back, then you can point out that you had tried your hardest to put her on the right path to recovery. She then would only have two options = 1, fights her own battle (which she will lose) or 2, accepts your total control of her finances.

Even though she is your kin you can only help so much - but she must be willing to help herself (to recovery and not into further debt).

ps. please can you replace the f word (7th paragraph)- thanks

[Ravenwolf]

I commend your commitment to helping your sister (and her new hubby).

It appears to me that you have really tried with her but now you should sit back and wait to see if she has learnt anything - if she actually gets deeper and comes running back, then you can point out that you had tried your hardest to put her on the right path to recovery. She then would only have two options = 1, fights her own battle (which she will lose) or 2, accepts your total control of her finances.

Even though she is your kin you can only help so much - but she must be willing to help herself (to recovery and not into further debt).

ps. please can you replace the f word (7th paragraph)- thanks

Apologies! I thought I did a pretty good job of editing my language (you'd really not appreciate the way I ordinarily type, LOL!) but I guess that f-bomb slipped past me.

Thank you for the rest of your comment. Ordinarily I can just brush something like this off with some colourful cursing and walk away - advice dispensed, duty done. But with my sister it's not so easy; I can't just switch off and not care anymore. Unfortunately, I think you may be right, and it just depresses me to no end to have to step back and watch her crash and burn... If I go that road I'm not entirely sure how to handle it either, though. My inclination would be to hang up on her the moment she says anything at all about spending money (because I don't want to hear about how she's making things worse), or whining about how she has no money (because it's not my problem and she clearly doesn't want it to be, so don't come crying to me).

I feel bad, Raven, but there's nothing you can do for your sister if she won't listen to you. My Dad's brother is the same way, though not heavily in debt, he continues to have money issues because he HAS to get that or his world will end. Sometimes I wanna smack my uncle, but I can't do that cause he's family...

By the way, off topic, but what's your name? It feels awkward calling you by your username all the time, even though when I first joined here I found it awkward to call people by their first names! Funny how these forums corrupt you...

LOL, my real name? I don't have it posted because I like the anonymity - it weirds me out when people I don't know call me by my name. But since you and I have been very interactive ever since I first joined, I don't mind telling you - it's Deb.

[Leyka&Diva]

my sister is the same shes in a lot of debt which she isnt really paying off with the minimum payments she makes she can afford more but she would rather spend it on herself shes on drugs which doesnt help her situation yet she wont listen to me or the rest of he family so we all came to the decision to leave her to it and she will learn on her own it sounds harsh but there not much we can do if shes not prepared to listen xx

[joshmp5]

I can understand the stress being put on by a family member. My brother drives me nuts. He is a VERY long story for another day, or lifetime. I wish i had your smarts in money management. I try to do a good job and curb my spending. but i somehow end up with not much at the end of the month. But, as for your sister, once you have done all you can to help and guide them, all you can do is stand by. Being in the military, I know that sometimes the only language someone understands is harsh or mean. That's the only way they will do more than hear your words. They might just listen to them as well. You did a good thing helping. You cannot force someone to understand.

[mydiamond]

Raven, as far as I can see you've done everything you can =\ no matter what you say or what you do, if your sister doesn't want to help herself then nothing is going to change. It surely is frustrating, but the more you help her the more she thinks that this lifestyle she's leading is actually alright---because she has you right beside her. Judging from her actions in the short paragraph above, guess it is safe to assume that she thought you're a superwoman born to assist her in any way. You shouldn't let her think that way, this is the worst time to spoil her =\ I'm not saying that you should leave her and her husband right this moment, but please don't feel bad for being unable to change anything sometimes, as annoying as it is, people need to hear the word "told you!"

[Andy]

If she ends up in court because of her spending then she may be forced to take professional advice.

and although I'm sure it will be exactly the same advice you have given her she may well take it seriously then.

However because you are family she chooses to ignore your advice, superb as it is.

Because . . .well. . .your just "blowing things out of proportion"

Sigh. . .

Good luck.

[Rosemary]

My sister is on the opposite side of the specturm - she gives everything away - she honestly doesn't have a care in the world, even though she has almost nothing to her name. If someone needs something, and she has it, they get it - end of story. She shops for clothes in thrift stores (she always looks stunning ) , which is just as well because she will pack it all up in a jiffy and give it to someone who needs it more than she does. Drives me nuts - not because she is good and kind, but because she goes without the basics, in order to help others. I worry about her constantly

It does not matter how many times we speak to them, they will carry on regardless and we will be there for them, we are their sisters

[Erinc]

*cookie please*

You've done everything you can & I'm glad venting on the forum has helped a bit! Hopefully she will come round soon!

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

massive hugs

[Ravenwolf]

Thank you all for your support. It really helps to know that I'm not alone in these frustrations, and as much as I hate hearing "let her fail" I know that it's what I need to do. She knows where to find me if she wants my help, but I'm through offering it and chasing her down.

The good news is that last night she called me and apologized about the night before. She said that she truly does value my help and doesn't want me to stop, so that's something, at least! We talked a bit more about her plan, and I banged my head against the wall some more. She presented me with her latest ideas for what she plans to do to help manage her money, both of which were met with "Oh dear gods do NOT do that!!!!" So she's accepting of the fact that she needs/wants my help, but she's not quite committed to the hardline approach required yet...

divaandjessie - Yikes. At least I can say my sister's only addictions are fast food, 5$ coffees and personal beautification. Throw the added problem of drugs in there and I don't know how a person could work with that!

Andy - haha, that's what I'm hoping to avoid! I totally get what you're saying about not hearing something just because it comes from family, while the exact same thing from a professional can be appreciated and taken to heart. I've thought about making her go to a financial counselor or some such thing, but I was hoping to save her the money, because she can't even afford that! As for blowing things out of proportion (which I bet she totally thought I was doing), I think I successfully shoved reality down her throat when I said "you spend MORE in personal play money than I do, and I make nearly DOUBLE what you do! And you wonder how you ended up in debt?"

Rosemary - aw, it's kind of heartbreaking to hear about your sister. It's touching for someone to be that generous, but sad to hear that it's to their own detriment. But I guess as long as she's fed, healthy, got good shelter and doesn't owe the world anything, living in voluntary poverty could be seen as merely a philanthropic choice. But if it's extreme to the point of mental illness... Gah! That kind of thing is so hard to deal with!!!

But you're right, I'll always be there to help her when she needs it - I guess I just have to sit back and wait for her to ask for it rather than offering to the point of being rejected.

Erinc - Cookies for you! :cookies:

[Erinc]

Erinc - Cookies for you! :cookies:

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