How do u know it's a show dog?

[mydiamond]

I'm just curious, but... How do you guys know?? O_O I've been visiting Lani's (HuskyMum09) thread several times now and then this question just pops up to my mind: People always say "hmm this pup would have a show career" or "this pup would do better in the show ring than that pup". How can you tell such small puppy would make a great show dog? How do you know they'll grow into the right height and weight? Is it just a guess made by judging the pup's parents? Or is there a secret "technique" that was only known by people who are experienced in the dog show world? Or something else? O_O

I know this is super random but I seriously want to know.. How? O_O

[persephona]

From what I gathered, breeders usually evaluate pups when they are around 2-3 months old... apparently that's when their proportions resemble their adult proportions most (afterwards, when they start growing, their proportions will keep changing... for example, entering the teenage lanky stage - they certainly won't look like that when they mature).

I think it takes an expert eye to tell if they'll be good for a show career or not, it's quite hard to tell before the dog matures and for some huskies it can take 2-3 years. And also, sometimes it happens that dogs that win awards in their puppy group won't actually do as well when they become adults.

But as I said, I think it comes with experience mostly. I could spend my whole day staring at a puppy and have no idea whether it will be just pet-quality or show quality. An experienced breeder could no doubt be able to do that though.

[mydiamond]

what truly fascinates me is how HuskyMom09 showed a pic of a puppy which is still in her "guinea pig stage" and told us that she's a quality girl. I was like: WOW! How does she know that O_O me myself, I couldn't tell apart a show-quality dog from a pet-quality dog even if the dogs are 2 years old! x_x gimme a ruler+scale and I might know, but.. can't really tell just by looks O_O

[NicTurtle]

Its just about studying and getting to know the breed standards. Its all about practice to get used to seeing the proportions.

[sutsibe]

I can look at them at that guinea pig (good comparison, mydiamond !) stage, and see things I do and don't like. By holding them in certain ways, you can see how their parts are put together, to some extent, but I've never been good at judging them at that stage, although some breeders really like to pick while they're still wet from being born! I like to wait until they're up and moving around at a trot. I usually start really evaluating them at 5-6 weeks, looking at how they move when they're trotting. You can tell a fair amount about how a dog's parts come together by the way they move/where their feet fall when they're trotting - if anyone is interested in this, there's a book by Rachel Page Elliot, called Dogsteps, which is very good at illustrating this!

I can also look at the style of a puppy's head, and make a guess (based on how the parents, grandparents, and other relatives look) as to what it will be like as an adult, which is generally the first thing you really see about most dogs - is the face drop-dead gorgeous, or merely "pretty" - or is it kinda, sorta homely? Markings, as I said in another post, DO make a difference to many judges, even though they shouldn't. That said, there are some markings that can't help but make a difference, especially if they create an optical illusion that throws perception off...

Here is a picture of two litter sisters I have. Angel is on the left as you see them, Jazz is on the right (Sorry, they need grooming!). Notice that Angel is just... prettier than her sister. Her ears look smaller and daintier, she's more elegant looking, and most judges would look at her (despite the "open face" [lack of markings on her face] and her blue eyes) and say "show dog"! Jazz is more of a "Plain Jane"... Quite honestly, though, if I were to show both of them to some of the more knowledgable breeder-judges (judges who breed Siberians) or another judge who really knows and values structurally sound movement, I think for many of them, Jazz would beat her sister - she's just a little bit better quality, overall!

[Austinville]

Oh! The girls! (Angel lives up to her name while Jazz is a jokester!)

@sutsibe

you should post of pic of handsome (yet wiley!) Strider. He's such a handsome boy! (Even with his battle scars - for those of you who haven't met Strider, his mouth gets him into trouble quite frequently! Not to mention that others in the kennel are intimidated by his good looks! They tend to dicipline him for getting mouthy so he has a bad ear and a scar on his beautiful snow nose ----- And he's still as handsome as ever. AND he moves well too!)

Yes, it's true..............I'm a Strider Fan!!!!! LMAO

Trying to make the tag work.......

@sutsibe

[HuskyMom09]

what truly fascinates me is how HuskyMom09 showed a pic of a puppy which is still in her "guinea pig stage" and told us that she's a quality girl. I was like: WOW! How does she know that O_O me myself, I couldn't tell apart a show-quality dog from a pet-quality dog even if the dogs are 2 years old! x_x gimme a ruler+scale and I might know, but.. can't really tell just by looks O_O

Oh I don't know, and the breeder is making no claims of this being a show quality puppy at this stage of the game, we're just starting to look for our quality girl and she was just the only girl born of that litter so she's all we have to look at right now and the other litter is on it's way. I only said I can hope she's the one we've been waiting for But at this stage we can see coat quality, size of head, quality of stop, basically what their head piece is going to look like based on the lineage and kinda know from comparing to the rest of the litter who's who and what's what. If for some reason she ends up being the only girl but not of proper conformation or just not right for us I can and will defer my deposit and wait for another litter.

What I'm looking for now to add to my kennel is a female of excellent conformation and solid color that will compliment what's currently in my show kennel (Denali and Takoda). My kennel is dilute and I need to add color into the mix. I'm returning to the breeder at the 6 week mark to re-evaluate, by then her bite should be set and there is a little more structure to evaluate and the other litter should be here by then so we can evaluate them as well.

[Huskies On The Go]

I think it's the way they act, look, and also from their bloodlines. But I agree with the members on this thread. That's what I have learned from AKC. Hope that helped.

[Huskies On The Go]

Here's few links I found maybe this will help you out....

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_know_if_your_dog_is_show_quality

http://www.hchltd.com/4H/DogShow.PDF

[lovemysiberian]

Here is a picture of two litter sisters I have. Angel is on the left as you see them, Jazz is on the right (Sorry, they need grooming!). Notice that Angel is just... prettier than her sister. Her ears look smaller and daintier, she's more elegant looking, and most judges would look at her (despite the "open face" [lack of markings on her face] and her blue eyes) and say "show dog"! Jazz is more of a "Plain Jane"... Quite honestly, though, if I were to show both of them to some of the more knowledgable breeder-judges (judges who breed Siberians) or another judge who really knows and values structurally sound movement, I think for many of them, Jazz would beat her sister - she's just a little bit better quality, overall!

[ATTACH=full]44846[/ATTACH]

Just out of curiousity, is there any particular reason why judges don't like an open face and blue eyes? It's always been something I wondered, because a lot of Sibes I've seen in shows are usually marked very similar to each other, usually have brown eyes and a lot of times, are silver/white in color. I just wondered because I know all colors/markings/eye colors are acceptable.

[HuskyMom09]

Just out of curiousity, is there any particular reason why judges don't like an open face and blue eyes? It's always been something I wondered, because a lot of Sibes I've seen in shows are usually marked very similar to each other, usually have brown eyes and a lot of times, are silver/white in color. I just wondered because I know all colors/markings/eye colors are acceptable.

Blue eyes often give the illusion of the eye being too round, which is a fault. And often judges just don't know how to compare things that are different. I see it a lot with my boy's Sire who is plush where most of the coats are not as plush as he is in the ring....when that happens he gets dumped. BUT if he's in the ring with another plush coat he'll get put up. This is of course when you are talking about all breed judges, a Siberian judge will know what they are looking at.

[SaraB]

That's like when I go in the ring with these two black and white sisters and this is just after the judge saw their black and white brother. When they are all at the show and not many other sibes there, they usually end up winning and I bet a lot of it has to do because they look so similar. They are really nice huskies, but they beat some dog I think they shouldn't have. But it's all up to the judge!

[mydiamond]

thanks for the replies, guys I still won't be able to tell if a puppy is show-quality or not but at least I understand a bit now

I can look at them at that guinea pig (good comparison, mydiamond !) stage,

actually, it's a comparison created by someone else in the forum x) I think it's Louise

[sutsibe]

@Austinville - here's one of Strider for you (I think it might be one you took!)...

Just out of curiousity, is there any particular reason why judges don't like an open face and blue eyes? It's always been something I wondered, because a lot of Sibes I've seen in shows are usually marked very similar to each other, usually have brown eyes and a lot of times, are silver/white in color. I just wondered because I know all colors/markings/eye colors are acceptable.

Blue eyes often give the illusion of the eye being too round, which is a fault. And often judges just don't know how to compare things that are different. I see it a lot with my boy's Sire who is plush where most of the coats are not as plush as he is in the ring....when that happens he gets dumped. BUT if he's in the ring with another plush coat he'll get put up. This is of course when you are talking about all breed judges, a Siberian judge will know what they are looking at.

I agree - a lot of judges that aren't Siberian breeders OR aren't from breeds that strongly stress movement (such as German Shepherds) really don't know what to do with a Siberian with "odd"/different markings! What is in fashion at one time will be "last year's fad" shortly. When I was first starting a number of years ago, small, cute, silver dogs were very popular. A little while later, the trend was toward red, and a little fluffier. Many of these judges are first and foremost looking for true "show" dogs - pretty/cute and interested in showing off, more than in the true quality of the dog for the purpose for which it was bred. They don't know enough about proper movement and what it should look like. Flashy things like the flying trot (all feet off the ground at some point in the stride), front and/or rear legs reaching too far forward or backward, the hind legs "kicking" behind are all eye-catching and too often popular with some judges, but they are inefficient, and waste energy, so aren't "proper movement" at all.

thanks for the replies, guys I still won't be able to tell if a puppy is show-quality or not but at least I understand a bit now

actually, it's a comparison created by someone else in the forum x) I think it's Louise

That's ok - most of the rest of us can't - at least as young as the puppy pictured above is! - either! I've always called them guinea pigs at that age, too - it's exactly what they look like!

[sharloid]

[ATTACH=full]44846[/ATTACH]

Both look like lovely dogs... but I think the one on the right is prettier...

[Laine]

See, I've the same problem, not just how to tell "show" quality but also conformation. I mean some things can be obvious but sometimes I can look at dog pictures and say both are "good", yet one of them has poor conformation.

A friend and I were discussing this the other day when the whole thing on "appearance" came up. I read some people making fun of dogs because their ears were misshapen and their conformation looked bad and so on ("like they got hit by a steamroller and someone glued bat ears on"). Thing is, the dog was out of working lines so I don't think looks was all that important, so long as the dog could do the job (yet the conformation of this dog is off I think, when you look at her; the kennel that bred her is pretty known for breeding bad quality dogs both mentally and physically). Ironic thing was, the people being the jerks about this one dog, have some "misshapen" dogs in their kennel, too.

I know some people might see my two and think "ugly", but I think Ri's absolutely handsome. I love his ears, his angular shaped face and he's just... handsome to me. And Shi, for all she's smaller than him, is gorgeous. But then I'm biased. They would never win in the ring even if they could be shown (unless they were shown against other Seppalas) but that's fine, I don't intend to be a ring person anyway. Still, I want to learn the differences in looks for dogs for show and conformation for dogs. No learning is wasted, after all.

sutsibe - BTW, I agree, Angel is "prettier"; there's just something about her face when compared to her sister. They're still both nice looking dogs though, even if they need grooming

And Strider will always be a handsome, handsome boy.

[mydiamond]

nooooooooo no one can call Shi & Ri "ugly" :mad: they're beautiful! >_<

[sutsibe]

The main advantage of a smaller ear (other than esthetics) is that it tends to radiate less heat - so in a very cold environment, the dog won't lose as much body heat through it's ears as a dog with "bat ears". The reasoning behind having them high on the head, as opposed to more on the side would be merely to distinguish the breed from the Mal, for the most part... For me, the esthetics do count, but are behind conformation, which means that the dog is better able to do the job for which it was bred without causing harm to itself, and temperament.

[knwilk44]

Hopefully one of these days I'll have a kennel of my own with AKC show quality dogs. That's my aspiration in life and hopefully I'll have that one of these days hopefully not too far in the future. Right now I'm with most people on the thread and don't really know a lot about proper conformation or what the difference between show quality and pet quality dogs are.

[Huskies On The Go]

Good plan Kristin. If so you need to read ALOT on the AKC standers and breed registration and go to these sites for help. Hope this helps you out Kristin.

http://www.akc.org/breeders/index.cfm?nav_area=breeders

http://www.akc.org/

[knwilk44]

Good plan Kristin. If so you need to read ALOT on the AKC standers and breed registration and go to these sites for help. Hope this helps you out Kristin.

http://www.akc.org/breeders/index.cfm?nav_area=breeders

http://www.akc.org/

Thanks!

[Huskies On The Go]

You are more than welcome, hope it turns out for you.

[Laine]

The main advantage of a smaller ear (other than esthetics) is that it tends to radiate less heat - so in a very cold environment, the dog won't lose as much body heat through it's ears as a dog with "bat ears". The reasoning behind having them high on the head, as opposed to more on the side would be merely to distinguish the breed from the Mal, for the most part... For me, the esthetics do count, but are behind conformation, which means that the dog is better able to do the job for which it was bred without causing harm to itself, and temperament.

Ah, now see, that makes sense and hey, I learned something.

My two have... well, they are big eared. I don't know if they'd be "Bat ears" but the breeder I got them from mentioned there are usually two ear "types" to the Seppala. Traditional is the smaller ears more to the side of the head (like Shila), and then there's the type that are larger, more at the top of the head and I think are considered more "modern", like Orion. To look at them, Orion's got longer, narrower oval ears and Shila has shorter, much larger oval ears. Yet both have ears that I think fit their looks and the proportions of their head.

I think, like you, esthetics count but behind conformation and temperament. The dog has to do the job it was given and be a good dog in harness and out of it, which is why I absolutely love Shila so much. She's everything I want in a dog both in and out of harness. In harness she has the go, go, go I love and the focus to keep going. She listens to me on commands and after we stop, she's always waiting for that "let's go" to keep going. She jumps a little when we go out, because she wants so much to run and I feel bad that we can't which is why I can't wait for a scooter or something so she can finally just go. When we stop, she glances back at me as if to check on why. Once I fell and she came back to stand beside me until I could get up again and keep going. A couple of times we've rested I wondered if she thought I was having a harder time of things, because she had that same concerned look and came to my side to wait. When it's a real break to rest them, she wanders around a little, but always has her attention on me. When she's out of harness, she's quiet, gentle with the cats, curious, funny, calm (which is amazing since when I first saw her she would not keep still), adored by my parents (especially my father which is a HUGE, huge deal) and she's so amazingly loving it's unreal. Shila is my dream dog and I am so, SO happy to have her and so thankful that her breeder allowed me the opportunity bring her into my life. (eh, sorry, rambled! )

Back to the point, I do like a "good looking" dog, too. But in that regard, what I consider good looking, others may not, which is why it kind'a ticks me off to see people bash a dog on looks. If the conformation is good, making fun of a dogs looks is just stupid and childish. (Okay, rant over! )

nooooooooo no one can call Shi & Ri "ugly" :mad: they're beautiful! >_<

Thanks, Liv. That actually means a lot; you've no idea.

[Huskies On The Go]

Nice Laine really nice.

[HuskyMom09]

This is the male lineage behind my line. There are a lot of similarities throughout. But each of these dogs behind Denali have had very successful show careers and performed as you'd expect from the breed in harness.

Drifter Tiko's Sire

Tiko- Ember's Sire

Ember, Denali's Sire

Denali-