I'll be hated for this...

[Bec]

I'm also not sure why the OP seems to think that most people refuse to physically correct their dogs and that physically correcting them can only be done through hitting them. There are many ways to train a dog, and no one method is the best or suits all dogs and owners. It's arrogant and quite condescending to tell us all otherwise.

I'm still quite disturbed that anyone would want to come onto a public forum and brag about hitting their dogs

[Jdidion]

I struggle with this topic b/c we have had a rough few months of training and I have never considered hitting Maya out of anger. I have used physical corrections by submitting her or when she was younger, using the scruff of her neck to get her attention. IMO, hitting will only make her reaction to me worse. I don't want my dog to fear me, I want her respect and love me so that we can have a great relationship. I know that there are others out there who believe that hitting a dog will get them to listen, but this is not the method I would ever choose.

[Synphny]

As a owner of 2 rescues I can see first hand what mental damages as well physical damages can be done to the dogs. The mental damage can never be undone as that imprint of fear of getting hit will remind them. Syn my female had an incredibly hard time overcoming that mental scarring as it took her 2 years to even wag her tail at me from me just stroking her head. That being said I do agree with other post regarding physical punishment when left no options in an emergency.

However your underlying training methods is that of borderline fear and intimidation control. As much as you love your dogs and your dogs love you there is always a nagging reminder that if they disobey you a physical retaliation will fall upon them at some point. Not exactly a healthy way to live since we can not communicate effectively to tell them under what circumstances will physical punishment come.

I think its great that your voice control over them with the serious tone will convince them to knock off whatever they are doing and you should continue to just work on that without the physical punishment.

Also punishing your dog because it is following its primal instinct for chasing a prey is undeserving, there is a much easier way to resolve that issue just keep the dogs separated from the cats. We as the owners who can control just about every aspect of their environmental interactions should not only have the intelligence and the discipline to simply make it happen.

Lastly regarding the rough play with the whole air bite and the close call to the nose of your dog. Just like you and your dog had a few "accidents" one of these days it will develop into some unwanted behaviors such as your dog doing it to another person or develop a fear of people touching his face. There are many other ways to interact and have fun with your dogs without that particular rough play.

Feel free to respond I would enjoy having a constructive debate with you.

[LittleLuka]

Living in the south my whole life that's just how kids are disciplined. My mom has backhanded me in the mouth when I've smarted off an I've had to pick a switch when I was bad as a child. I dot fear my mother and I don't have psychological damage.

What I do have I respect for her and I've learned the rules. I'm 22 now and I'm sorry but I will spank my children when I have them. I won't beat them by any means but like stated some kids don't respond to time out. My mom had a "look" a well and she would give it to me as a warning of what was next if I kept on.

As for luka I don't think I could ever flat out hit him simply because he doesn't have the reasoning a human has. I will however pop him on the but if he keeps on. I've never had him yelp or in all honesty phase him in the least bit. That's why I think telling him no works Better for me.

I do think everyone ha a different method and no one should be judged for it. Also I would like to mention people in different places do things differently. Like I said its very common in the south for parents to spank their children. That's just my opinion though.

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?o5q2rd

[Bec]

Alex you're right though that the difference is that dogs and children are not the same. You can reason with a child, you can explain to them that x has y consequence. Dogs aren't quite the same

[ponder85]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'd like to clear some things up. I don't beat my dogs. Physical correction does alter their actions in a desirable way. I don't enjoy hurting my dogs. They absolutely understand what is expected of them. They are not beaten. It's not out of anger. I see it as a legitimate way to teach my dogs there are consequences for poor behavior.

Can someone explain the difference between hitting a dog on the nose, and using choke/prong collar? What am I missing? Either results in some amount of discomfort or pain to the dog. What about shock collars? Anyone ever used one on themselves? They are not pleasant, and I'm 230 lbs. (yes I tried it at full setting to see what my dog was experiencing). And before I get whining, it's only used on my gsd as an absolute last resort on walks, bc she is mostly walked off lead.

If my husky chases the cat he gets hit. I don't buy the instinct argument. I believe my dog is able to control the direction he points his body in, and he can also control the movement of his legs. I understand the cat looks fun to him.

To whomever said it's not working: it absolutely has worked. I thought I pointed it out in my initial post, but I'll say it again. People food is rarely messed with, the cat is seldom chased, and the husky only pulls when he's trying to catch something, or extremely excited to get to the dog park. More often than not, a tug of his leash reminds him.

I don't think I gave the impression I was bragging. I certainly was not. It takes a pretty pathetic human to get enjoyment out of hurting an innocent creature.

I am going to take the overwhelming advice given here though. I'll do it differently (no hitting) and see how it goes.

The last thing I want to do is give my dogs long term emotional issues. Inflicting short term pain obviously doesnt bother me, if it's deserved. But if it's going to have lasting negative consequences down the road, I'll change, even if it takes longer.

Does anyone have any documented evidence of this? Any studies online? Anything I can read, other than the PC "don't hit your dog, it's bad" arguments?

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

I don't know much about bings past but he was definitely hit before we got him ,how badly I don't know but if I stub my toe and swear he runs and hides if he's near me and I raise my hand up for what ever reason (brushing my hair out my face etc) he will flinch , we've had him for nearly ten years now and he still does this despite being spoilt n loved here it's obviously had a lasting negative damaging effect on him n that's why I won't use my hands on my dogs for discipline

Sent from my ST18i using Forum Runner

[ponder85]

Maybe I'm too hard on them in my approach.

I found this article interesting. Leerburg | The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training

Under positive punishment, he talks about using a shock collar, bc it forces the dog to do something its supposed to. However, I don't keep two shock collars on my dogs at all times.

Chasing the cat will always be more interesting then the best treats I can find.

I'd appreciate feedback to that. Thanks again.

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Thanks for all the replies.

Can someone explain the difference between hitting a dog on the nose, and using choke/prong collar? What am I missing? Either results in some amount of discomfort or pain to the dog. What about shock collars? Anyone ever used one on themselves? They are not pleasant, and I'm 230 lbs. (yes I tried it at full setting to see what my dog was experiencing). And before I get whining, it's only used on my gsd as an absolute last resort on walks, bc she is mostly walked off lead.

If my husky chases the cat he gets hit. I don't buy the instinct argument. I believe my dog is able to control the direction he points his body in, and he can also control the movement of his legs. I understand the cat looks fun to him.

yes I can explain, hitting your dog on the nose can damage their sense of smell.

copied from an article on the web :

What can affect a dog’s sense of smell?

Be careful when it comes to the nose of your search dog. You should never hit a dog, but especially never hit them on top of the nose. Nasal membranes lie along the top of the nose and their sense of smell can be damaged by “bops†to the nose.

I dont agree with prong collars or shock collars.

Huskies will chase cats as will most dogs, its inbuilt into their system as a dog. Its where the phrase "fighting like cats and dogs" comes from.

Sure you will find a few that don't do it and I know some people on here have huskies that hug and lie with the cats.

But I also know people on here who's huskies have killed cats too.

I have smacked on the bottom, my kids and my dogs and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

But, I don't do it every day or even every month. Only on a very rare occasion when nothing else works.

[Stranger]

The only hitting i do with my dogs, would be a tap....or poke....as in oi are you listening to me.

but then that is not what i would call hitting

[LittleLuka]

my parents lab has a shock collar and he doesn't even have to be shocked with it. the purpose of it was the trainer recommended it because he's a hunting dog. the moment it is put on him he behaves. now when you take it off that's a completely different story...

[Removed #2]

Honest, I skimmed through the other responses, and did not read every word. I am trained as a teacher, but work in subsidized housing.I wonder what might happen if my residents chose to disobey the rules of the community or the lease that they were hit, or I turned off their water for the day. Neglect and pain are hardly appropriate for mistakes...and dogs don't think like humans anticipating what behavior they will show, they are reactive. And your post makes me think. If you went to work every day fearing your boss would smack you upside your head if you made a mistake, how long do you think you could work there? How good of a job do you think you could do with that fear in you? To this day I feel horrible for the one time each of my kids got their mouths washed out with soap. My children's father was a spanker, and I wonder if once my daughter was bigger than me when she got mad and hit me and threw me across the room if it was because of how she had been punished by her father? I now have 3 rescue dogs...all huskies, who were terribly neglected in one way or another, and one for sure, had been hit, because even approaching him to pet the top of his head resulted in "ducking" for quite a while. I will say I think you have a lot of nerve bringing a subject like this to this forum....and I don't even want to know what others think because I think hitting an animal is never okay. I feel like you are probably even questioning yourself and are looking for someone to either tell you what you are doing is okay or you want to be punished by hearing negative comments, or you would have no need for your flame suit. No doubt someone somewhere has a forum that talks about negative punishment for dogs...and I would politely ask you to take your opinion there. While I may get punished for my post, I feel the need to make it clear that it's never okay to get violent with a dog.

Edited June 18, 2012 by HuskyHijinx

[LittleLuka]

To this day I feel horrible for the one time each of my kids got their mouths washed out with soap. My children's father was a spanker, and I wonder if once my daughter was bigger than me when she got mad and hit me and threw me across the room if it was because of how she had been punished by her father?

i agree that hitting a dog can cause him to be fearful and that's why i choose to discipline Luka differently but i have to respectfully disagree with your statement regarding children. There is a difference between spanking and being abused. Abuse can cause psychological damage in many ways but i do not believe spanking does. I've had my mouth washed out with soap and that doesn't mean i'm scarred for life over it. I've never raised a hand to my momma and i never will. You know why? Because being spanked taught me respect. You are more than allowed to have your opinion but i don't think you have the right to judge other people for having a different one. If you would like hard facts regarding this i will more than gladly post. I actually did a study in my psychology class regarding this issue. Just my opinion though!

[Removed #5]

"HuskyHijinx"]I will say I think you have a lot of nerve bringing a subject like this to this forum....and I don't even want to know what others think because I think hitting an animal is never okay. I feel like you are probably even questioning yourself and are looking for someone to either tell you what you are doing is okay or you want to be punished by hearing negative comments, or you would have no need for your flame suit.

... and I'm surprised at your response! Even when we disagree here, it's normally done with considerably more courtesy than *I* see in your response.

We all have our own ways of doing things, some more productive than others and some less so. I intentionally bolded part of your reply - If that were his reason then is your response going to be beneficial? He explained what he did and why and has been generally receptive to the flood of comments that came his way ... can't we give him the chance to learn?

Like many of my generation the discipline we received would, by todays standards, have been abuse but society is gradually learning how to handle those situations constructively.

and on that note I don't think I have anything more to say ....

[Removed #2]

When I post something, I am simply posting MY OPINION. If I pose a question, it's just that. If I say I feel like this poster is questioning himself, then that's what i mean...I FEEL THAT...and to the post above, I'm not judging, I'm simply commenting and stating MY OPINION based on MY EXPERIENCE. The problem on anything on a forum is some people believe they understand a tone of voice that cannot be heard or in fact, that strangers actually know someone based on what is read, not necessarily what is said. So from now on, before I am judged for my opinion, understand that it is just that, and while I am not judging anyone, just saying how I feel. I explained why I thought raising a hand and hitting either a dog or a child was inappropriate, and even outing myself for doing it and feeling bad about it. I just don't get it sometimes why others are offended, when it's not even directed toward them, but is about me and how it makes ME feel. I don't think that it's okay to put fear in a dog by them knowing what's going to come next to make them behave, because frankly, I don't believe that they do know that, as I believe they don't think ahead in that manner. But if you think they do, then your opinion will be different, and that is just fine with me. It's all about opinions offered, and then sorting through and taking what you want. I was not attacking anyone for what they did or what they think, just saying I don't agree for my personal reasons.

[Removed #2]

i agree that hitting a dog can cause him to be fearful and that's why i choose to discipline Luka differently but i have to respectfully disagree with your statement regarding children. There is a difference between spanking and being abused. Abuse can cause psychological damage in many ways but i do not believe spanking does. I've had my mouth washed out with soap and that doesn't mean i'm scarred for life over it. I've never raised a hand to my momma and i never will. You know why? Because being spanked taught me respect. You are more than allowed to have your opinion but i don't think you have the right to judge other people for having a different one. If you would like hard facts regarding this i will more than gladly post. I actually did a study in my psychology class regarding this issue. Just my opinion though!

All I ask is that an entire post is read and understood before judging and thinking that I am judging, since what has been quoted is obviously to me pulled out of context.....pulling one or two statements and then scolding for judging, well whatever, you are entitled to your opinion the same as I am, and while you did not respond poorly to being spanked, i can almost guarantee that for every research project you do or find that says spanking teaches respect, I can find one that says the opposite. Someone may agree, someone may disagree, someone may understand, someone may not. Unless you know for sure that I have passed judgement, please don't be acusatory. This sounds like an off leash conversation starting, and I don't want to be here for that. I'm sorry that you did not understand my point of view.

[Removed #2]

Thank you...I actually feel better now as I agree totally and am so tired of posting my view and then feeling like I'm being punished because I disagree.

[Removed #2]

I am pleased your dogs are so well behaved, however having 2 kids of my own and working with 40 preschool children every day I cannot condone violence towards kids. I get comments on a regular basis on how wellmannered my teenage kids are and I have not needed to resort to hitting them. Each to their own. My dogs are managed in a way that we are all happy with and no-one gets hit.

Thank you...I actually feel better now as I agree totally and am so tired of posting my view and then feeling like I'm being punished because I disagree.

[Removed #2]

Everybody will have their own training methods

but i'm sorry i personally dont like nor agree with yours

'if they go after the cat they will get hit'.........hit or not one day you may well find that they actually do get the cat....its their prey drive and cant be beaten out of them!

'if i catch them eating people food that got left out,they both know pain comes next'..........

wow.....maybe i'm different cos' all but one of my dogs are rescue dogs,2 of which came to me so scared if you even raised your voice and raise your hand near their heads and they cowered.......an awful thing to see!!

so no i wont ever physically correct my dogs,i wont say they are the best behaved dogs in the world but they are loved.

i do usually say each to their own but your methods just horrify me to be honest,imo there are far better ways to train your dog.

Thank you...I actually feel better now as I agree totally and am so tired of posting my view and then feeling like I'm being punished because I disagree.

[Removed #2]

I don't condone any sort of violence to any animal. If you can't control your dogs without hitting them, then in my eyes you shouldn't have dogs............Ron

Thank you...I actually feel better now as I agree totally and am so tired of posting my view and then feeling like I'm being punished because I disagree. (This was actually the first post I intended my response to but hit the wrong reply button...Thanks Ron...) I totally agree with you that if you have to hit them, you should not have them.

[Removed #2]

I'm surprised I already have as many replies to this thread. Cool!

Interesting you mention yours are rescue dogs. My sibe was a shelter rescue who was pretty timid at first, and my GSD was acquired from craigslist, from a family that treated her poorly. My GSD used to move her head the second I moved my hand to pet her. Her confidence is up now and I think she's happy. I never said mine were the best behaved either. Heel for both of them is an ongoing struggle

I certainly hope that you do not hit or strike your dog if it's not learning heel. But now after reading your responses here, I believe even more that maybe if you don't want to learn how to do something different, as someone suggested in response to my earlier post, maybe there is somewhere else where your discussion won't be so alarming or upsetting.

*************************************************

I would be willing to bet more than 50% of dog owners have struck their dogs on at least one occassion. Keep in mind that those of us on a dog forum are the vast minority. By your logic all those dogs should be taken to a shelter and killed (what else would happen to all the dogs that shouldn't be in possession of their violent owners?). Can you justify your reason for thinking that I shouldn't have dogs because I hit them?

********************************************************************

Please do not lump me into the same group as you as a dog striker. I have not and never will, and i would tend to believe that NOT FIFTY PERCENT of husky owners on this forum have struck their dogs. Do you just want to raise a ruckus here or is there something that you would like us to learn from your post as that is what I am constantly reminded this is about on here.

******************************************************

I guess a few of you got lucky with your kids. Maybe I was a bad kid. I had a few groundings, corner time, etc. There was nothing that ever changed my attitude like my parents grabbing a belt.

Maybe it's too bad that the way you were taught was this way. It doesn't mean you were a bad kid, it may mean that your parents were taught that way by their parents, and they by theirs, etc. Instilling fear in a child or an animal has never worked in my experience and I've paid the price unfortunately for far less than grabbing a belt. It's really too bad that nobody was able to help your parents learn a different method. Are you coming here to learn a better method or to let us know that this is a better method? I 'm really trying to understand so my responses can be appropriate.

[Removed #2]

OK I'll answer a few of your questions, if they are indeed questions:

Why can you physically correct a child and not a dog? - Answer to this is simple. Yeah if a kid "seriously" steps out of line they will get a crack, however the difference is that the child knows why. A dog does not if done for the first time, and therefore all it knows is you hurt it. That IMO is certainly not fair and I will never agree with it. The only time I would ever even entertain hitting a dog is if he/she had hold of another person/dog and would not let go, and then its through complete lack of option.

Hit for chasing the cat? If you are doing this I urge you to completely stop that now. If you think this is fine then you have obviously not researched about having a husky in the first place. Huskies have a very high pray drive and they will chase/even kill small animals. You are hitting him for an instinct he may be unable to control. Its the equivilant of someone hitting you when you jump after touching a hot fire. Its instinctive.

Play hitting? If you are punching and stopping a few inches from his nose, and you have accidentally hit him a few times. STOP IT. Its not rocket science and Im sorry but that is plain irresponsible regardless of your training methods. You are doing something that could potentially hurt your dog when doing nothing wrong, and then trying to teach him that when you hurt him he is doing something wrong. Therefore everytime you hit him my accident you have just taught him he is not allowed to play (by your own training method)

Also just to note, you say you are the only person using this method. That in itself makes your training pointless as you have given only yourself the tools to correct your dog. All you have done is stopped anyone else from correcting your dog, and Im sorry if this offends but one day someone will be bitten. Its not an if, its a when.

I agree with most of this, but as is obvious by my number of responses, this is a thread making me hot. I cannot agree with the first answer here....a kid does not always understand why they are being physically punished. If they did, why would they do what they did that gets them smacked, popped or hit, whatever you want to call it? I don't believe a child "asks for it" in the same way a dog doesn't ask for it. Children are inexperienced and learn behaviors from many different places. Parents for the first time are inexperienced also, and it is all a learning experience about our levels of tolerance and how it needs to be expanded. Unfortunately, as parents, we really don't learn how our behaviors have affected our children until they are adults and sometimes adults with their own children. I watch my daughter discipline her children and am sometimes appalled, sometimes knowing where she learned it from, other times not knowing at all.

[LittleLuka]

All I ask is that an entire post is read and understood before judging and thinking that I am judging, since what has been quoted is obviously to me pulled out of context.....pulling one or two statements and then scolding for judging, well whatever, you are entitled to your opinion the same as I am, and while you did not respond poorly to being spanked, i can almost guarantee that for every research project you do or find that says spanking teaches respect, I can find one that says the opposite. Someone may agree, someone may disagree, someone may understand, someone may not. Unless you know for sure that I have passed judgement, please don't be acusatory. This sounds like an off leash conversation starting, and I don't want to be here for that. I'm sorry that you did not understand my point of view.

Okay for starters, I'm sorry that you felt i was being accusatory. That was not my intention. I just don't see why you don't understand why your words wouldn't offend someone? You're entitled to your opinion by all means, but sometimes when we make our opinions known it's smart to be discreet. This forum is for people to discuss their different lifestyles and methods of dealing with their pets. You say people don't know how you mean your tone to come across, I agree. But i do find it odd that more than myself found your tone to not be as friendly as it should be in a debate. I'm sorry that i misunderstood what you were saying but i felt like you were judging personally.

I did read your ENTIRE post and i understand your point of view. I stated i DISAGREE not hate you for it. I felt i should respond because as someone who was spanked as a child and came out JUST FINE i felt like i could offer some insight. It's a hot topic for me as well because by someone saying that parents are bad parents for spanking their kids, well, that's saying my parents are bad parents (NOT SAYING YOU SAID THAT). I'm not trying to argue with you, like i've stated multiple times you can have your opinion, just don't judge other peoples.

And yes, dogs are "our children" but realistically they are NOT children. My Luka is my baby and there's nothing i wouldn't go without or do for him if necessary but at the end of the day he is a dog. He's not a human. He doesn't have the same brain or reasoning.

Please don't think i'm attacking you, that was never my intention. I simply wanted to put my point across, like you did.

Edited June 18, 2012 by LittleLuka

[PoBD]

I've tried to read everyone's points and views, I can see where most of you are coming from. When I was growing up if I blatantly went against my parents I got a spanking with a leather belt. When Moro the sibe or Juno the GSD are asked to do something they know they need to do and do not, I give them MANY verbal chances to get it right....99% of the time I will catch them with a firm grip of the collar and extra neck skin (like a mother dog would bite) and tell them NO very seriously and they get it....every once in a while they WILL NOT answer my directions, I will reach out and give them a smack on the rear end, never the face or anywhere else...that smack I give them would not hurt me if I hit myself in the face the same way but it sure gets their attention in a heart beat (it's just enough to break their attention on what they are ignoring me for) and lets them know MOM IS NOT KIDDING! within 30 seconds or LESS they are all love and all about mom and dad, they never miss a beat of happiness. They love us like we love them, unconditionally but they know when they ignore we will get them. It doesn't hurt them AT ALL, we will never hurt them, but they know I'M SPEAKING TO YOU, YOU BETTER ANSWER! I use a rolled up magazine now or open palm, they don't like the noise and a swat to the butt once they get the picture loud and clear and it doesn't hurt. I think there is a balance to be obtained in this, everyone will ALWAYS have their own way and will always feel another way is not best, etc. If the dog does not sustain injury and is not abused (which would be evident, there would be no love for the owner EVER) then I agree that some physical discipline is fine, after all, what would a wolf do? they won't hand out treats to unruly pack members or toss a toy, they give warning bites. When I swat/smack my dogs on the rear, that is their warning bite. I DO NOT IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM enjoy swatting my dogs. THEY ARE MY CHILDREN I love them more than I could ever ever express in words. Like my husband they are my life! I put more time into them than anything aside from my husband and myself. I do not agree that pain should be the point of it. I think the point of the swat is to "jolt" them (not physically, its not that hard of a swat) and break their attention. When Moro or Juno get a hold of something they should not chew, all it takes is verbal correction (sometimes while holding the collar), with Moro I tell him, "lemme see, where did you get that" and he brings it right to me and drops it in my hand, I show him the item and tell him, NO not yours and put it away. With Juno the GSD, all we have to do is say "what is that! what did you do! DROP IT" and she gets so guilty and so sorry she drops it immediately and apologizes. We only have to sound a little angry lol. I've never hurt my pets and I never will. My way is verbal warnings, grabbing the collar/neck for the purpose of getting attention (pain free) and then the swat to the rear (pain free) to really say HEY I'm talking to you. Oh and I can swat Moro and tell him no, he'll turn around and lick me to death to say sorry I love you....he knows I'm not going to hurt him, so does Juno. There is a line...do I think its THAT fine of a line, no. I think a swat or firm smack on the bottom is fine, but hauling off and hitting them to cause pain, no....and NO ONE will ever be able to tell me I've hurt my pets or that they don't love us with all their little hearts.

[Marc]

All I ask is that an entire post is read and understood before judging and thinking that I am judging, since what has been quoted is obviously to me pulled out of context.....pulling one or two statements and then scolding for judging, well whatever, you are entitled to your opinion the same as I am, and while you did not respond poorly to being spanked, i can almost guarantee that for every research project you do or find that says spanking teaches respect, I can find one that says the opposite. Someone may agree, someone may disagree, someone may understand, someone may not. Unless you know for sure that I have passed judgement, please don't be acusatory. This sounds like an off leash conversation starting, and I don't want to be here for that. I'm sorry that you did not understand my point of view.

I feel this is a little hipocrytical since you stated yourself that you didnt read it all and then judged yourself. The person in question actually stated due to the constructive responses before yours that he is going to change his methods of training to exclude the physical methods. I can only assume that from your response you do not feel that this is a possitive outcome. Or is it that maybe you should have read the topic first?

Thank you...I actually feel better now as I agree totally and am so tired of posting my view and then feeling like I'm being punished because I disagree.

Four times this was posted in your series of double posting which lasted for 8 posts!!! I can only assume that you are intentionally trying to annoy me? You have absolutly no reason for not using edit, and absolutly no reason whatsoever other than arrogance for posting that statement over and over again

Edited June 18, 2012 by Marc