I'll be hated for this...

[loops]

if my step son had more discipline and maybe a slap in his mid teenage years he may not be the nob that he is now lol

[Removed #5]

I'm going out on a limb here, this is not directed at anyone just the tone *I* see. I don't think anyone here thinks they're abusing their dogs. Moreover, I don't think anyone here *is* abusing their dogs. BUT what I might see as a love tap others may immediately consider abusive. Do I agree 100% with anyone here, probably not; do I disagree with anyone here 100%, definitely not.

When it comes to discipline everyone has their line that they won't cross. That line in most rational humans is where what we're doing as discipline inflicts real pain. Real pain, is both physical and emotional - how many have said that "All I have to do is <x,y,z> and my boy knows he's in trouble." Not emotional? Even our dogs will feel "left out" when their behaviour warrants a time out - again real emotional pain.

There are some here who suggest that absolute love and kindness will win over all - generally I agree, but the second time Sasha bit me, knowing full well what she was doing, my correction became a bit stronger - she got slapped! BTW, that's the only time I've hit her in response to something she did - and yes, I'm getting real tired of picking up after her in the kitchen.

Sometimes people will hypothesize < I think that's the word I want > a situation and posit that to see the reaction - as a learning tool. Is that what the OP did here? I don't know. Has he aroused some strong emotions among us - without doubt. Does it give us the chance to reflect on how we interact with our dogs - if we use it to.

It's been said repeatedly that our dogs are our children - but it's also been said repeatedly, they are not children, they don't have the mental capabilities to reason that even our youngest do. We want to treat them with the same love and respect we would our kids but in the end we can't set down and rationalize with them as we would one of the human variety.

I just reread this entire thread, and as I said when I started, I don't necessarily agree with anyone here. But rereading it has given me a chance to consider how *I* interact with my dogs.

[PoBD]

I love them like children but they are corrected like their mother would correct them (well as close to that as a human can get without looking like a nut LOL).

[Removed #2]

Four times this was posted in your series of double posting which lasted for 8 posts!!! I can only assume that you are intentionally trying to annoy me? You have absolutly no reason for not using edit, and absolutly no reason whatsoever other than arrogance for posting that statement over and over again

[Marc]

I'm going out on a limb here, this is not directed at anyone just the tone *I* see. I don't think anyone here thinks they're abusing their dogs. Moreover, I don't think anyone here *is* abusing their dogs. BUT what I might see as a love tap others may immediately consider abusive. Do I agree 100% with anyone here, probably not; do I disagree with anyone here 100%, definitely not.

When it comes to discipline everyone has their line that they won't cross. That line in most rational humans is where what we're doing as discipline inflicts real pain. Real pain, is both physical and emotional - how many have said that "All I have to do is <x,y,z> and my boy knows he's in trouble." Not emotional? Even our dogs will feel "left out" when their behaviour warrants a time out - again real emotional pain.

There are some here who suggest that absolute love and kindness will win over all - generally I agree, but the second time Sasha bit me, knowing full well what she was doing, my correction became a bit stronger - she got slapped! BTW, that's the only time I've hit her in response to something she did - and yes, I'm getting real tired of picking up after her in the kitchen.

Sometimes people will hypothesize < I think that's the word I want > a situation and posit that to see the reaction - as a learning tool. Is that what the OP did here? I don't know. Has he aroused some strong emotions among us - without doubt. Does it give us the chance to reflect on how we interact with our dogs - if we use it to.

It's been said repeatedly that our dogs are our children - but it's also been said repeatedly, they are not children, they don't have the mental capabilities to reason that even our youngest do. We want to treat them with the same love and respect we would our kids but in the end we can't set down and rationalize with them as we would one of the human variety.

I just reread this entire thread, and as I said when I started, I don't necessarily agree with anyone here. But rereading it has given me a chance to consider how *I* interact with my dogs.

And an excellent note to finish the topic on. Cheers Al

There must be something wrong with one of our browsers than cause I didn't do it 8 times and had no intent to annoy anyone...was just glad that others had strong opinions.

So you dissagree you posted 8 posts in a row? All with different content? Even the ones where you intentionally posted the same comment quoting different people?

Edited June 18, 2012 by Marc

[LittleLuka]

I'm going out on a limb here, this is not directed at anyone just the tone *I* see. I don't think anyone here thinks they're abusing their dogs. Moreover, I don't think anyone here *is* abusing their dogs. BUT what I might see as a love tap others may immediately consider abusive. Do I agree 100% with anyone here, probably not; do I disagree with anyone here 100%, definitely not.

When it comes to discipline everyone has their line that they won't cross. That line in most rational humans is where what we're doing as discipline inflicts real pain. Real pain, is both physical and emotional - how many have said that "All I have to do is <x,y,z> and my boy knows he's in trouble." Not emotional? Even our dogs will feel "left out" when their behaviour warrants a time out - again real emotional pain.

There are some here who suggest that absolute love and kindness will win over all - generally I agree, but the second time Sasha bit me, knowing full well what she was doing, my correction became a bit stronger - she got slapped! BTW, that's the only time I've hit her in response to something she did - and yes, I'm getting real tired of picking up after her in the kitchen.

Sometimes people will hypothesize < I think that's the word I want > a situation and posit that to see the reaction - as a learning tool. Is that what the OP did here? I don't know. Has he aroused some strong emotions among us - without doubt. Does it give us the chance to reflect on how we interact with our dogs - if we use it to.

It's been said repeatedly that our dogs are our children - but it's also been said repeatedly, they are not children, they don't have the mental capabilities to reason that even our youngest do. We want to treat them with the same love and respect we would our kids but in the end we can't set down and rationalize with them as we would one of the human variety.

I just reread this entire thread, and as I said when I started, I don't necessarily agree with anyone here. But rereading it has given me a chance to consider how *I* interact with my dogs.

WELL SAID AL! Everyone has different opinions, what matters is how you present them to others.

[Removed #2]

And an excellent note to finish the topic on. Cheers Al

So you dissagree you posted 8 posts in a row? All with different content? Even the ones where you intentionally posted the same comment quoting different people?

Nope, i just didn't see it on my browser and saw when i started to respond to this that it scrolled up and i missed part of it. I made a mistake, that's it.

I've also not been able to figure out how to do multiple quotes in one post...have tried, but i'm obviously doing something wrong, or i'd have done that. Not terribly computer savvy here.

Edited June 18, 2012 by HuskyHijinx

[Elyse]

I've seen plenty of dogs at the shelter when I volunteered there, and it was obvious they were abused. Even Suka, the dog I adopted there, was abused in some physical way.

He doesn't have any scars, but considering his past owners (the H.S I got him from missed a previous paper that had the previous owners' names on it) I wouldn't doubt he was 'corrected' like how the O.P does with his dogs.

The dogs at the shelter are all mentally and emotionally scarred. It takes a LOT of time to gain their trust - some are timid and shy away while others turn defensive and try to bite.

IMO, people who hit their dogs (unless in extreme circumstances, like it wouldn't let go of a person or an animal or it bit you) shouldn't have a dog.

[Bec]

Apologies for my late reply to your post Ponder85, I haven't had a proper internet connection in days

Thanks for all the replies.

I'd like to clear some things up. I don't beat my dogs. Physical correction does alter their actions in a desirable way. I don't enjoy hurting my dogs. They absolutely understand what is expected of them. They are not beaten. It's not out of anger. I see it as a legitimate way to teach my dogs there are consequences for poor behavior.

If your dogs 'absolutely understood what was expected of them' why don't they behave perfectly 100% of the time?

Can someone explain the difference between hitting a dog on the nose, and using choke/prong collar? What am I missing?

When we use training tools like prong collars properly we are applying an aversive in a controlled environment as part of a training program. It's not reactive the way it is when you catch your dog doing something bad and hit them, but proactive because it's controlled and planned. When we use a training tool like a prong or e-collar we are also removing the handler from the equation, it isn't about direct confrontation like it is when you hit your dog, in fact it's not confrontational at all. If you use a prong collar (for example) properly you are applying a mild aversive to get the dog to offer an alternate behavior, it is used for leverage and the dog is learning x behaviour isn't successful because of y. It's nothing to do with the handler but with the behaviour the dog is exhibiting and learning is no longer successful. When you hit your dog it is confrontational and you are teaching your dog that the way to win is to be bigger and stronger, you are also teaching them that stopping that behaviour involves direct confrontation with you, not that the behaviour isn't successful regardless of the handler's actions.

If my husky chases the cat he gets hit. I don't buy the instinct argument. I believe my dog is able to control the direction he points his body in, and he can also control the movement of his legs. I understand the cat looks fun to him.

Your opinion that prey drive isn't an instinct driven behaviour goes beyond reasonable logic and what we understand and know from science. Prey drive is instinct; it is genetic. When a dog goes into prey drive they are going through a motor pattern in their brain and they start using the part of their brain known as the medulla, the part of the brain that is instinct driven, once they switch into this 'mode' they are running on adrenalin. Where do you think dogs get prey drive from if it's not instinctual?

Sure, dogs can be taught not to go into prey drive - for dogs with decent prey drive this would require extreme aversives to shut them down completely. We prefer to teach owners to train their dogs to be able to work IN drive, but this isn't something that can be achieved through hitting your dog.

To whomever said it's not working: it absolutely has worked. I thought I pointed it out in my initial post, but I'll say it again. People food is rarely messed with, the cat is seldom chased, and the husky only pulls when he's trying to catch something, or extremely excited to get to the dog park. More often than not, a tug of his leash reminds him.

Does the dog still exhibit the behaviour? Then the problem still exists...

I don't think I gave the impression I was bragging. I certainly was not. It takes a pretty pathetic human to get enjoyment out of hurting an innocent creature.

Then why start a thread talking about how great it is to hit your dog and how you don't understand why other people wouldn't use this fantastic 'training method'?

The last thing I want to do is give my dogs long term emotional issues. Inflicting short term pain obviously doesnt bother me, if it's deserved. But if it's going to have lasting negative consequences down the road, I'll change, even if it takes longer.

I don't think dogs ever 'deserve' to feel pain, but sometimes applying aversives becomes necessary because we are humans have allowed our dogs to develop habits we don't want to live with. That isn't the dog's problem, it's our problem.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Bec

[arronbar]

havent read all posts, so please dont judge my comments to harshly and sorry if this is repeating other comments, i think that positive reinforcment is both done physically and verbally, wild dogs learn the right and wrong from the mothers or pack leaders correct??? this can be seen with little snaps and nips to the offending dog aslo by verbal barks snarls etc correct???? right so this method has worked for millenia so when your dog does something that is naughty then a tap on the nose or some where on the head is the same as the parent would have done. i off lead my husky at the moment she is 17months old, when i first started doing this it was a night mare, she used to chase sheep and anything that ran, so i managed to catch her while chaseing and pinched her ear, yes she yelpted but has never done it since,well not with any intent liked she use to, (doesnt chase sheep anymore) yes there is a line of what is considered abuse and what is corrective treatment,

like i say i think smashing the hell out of an animal is so wrong but a light tap or pinch with vocal comments is fine. but it is important to do it while the negative behavior is happening not after as the message you are wanting to inforce could be assoiated with the wrong behavior ie shouting at a dog once it has come back to you after running off........ surely this should be highly praised and rewarded that they came back, with efforts made to let them know that running off is not excepted... think that makes sense or is it just ramblings???

[Bec]

havent read all posts, so please dont judge my comments to harshly and sorry if this is repeating other comments, i think that positive reinforcment is both done physically and verbally, wild dogs learn the right and wrong from the mothers or pack leaders correct??? this can be seen with little snaps and nips to the offending dog aslo by verbal barks snarls etc correct???? right so this method has worked for millenia so when your dog does something that is naughty then a tap on the nose or some where on the head is the same as the parent would have done. i off lead my husky at the moment she is 17months old, when i first started doing this it was a night mare, she used to chase sheep and anything that ran, so i managed to catch her while chaseing and pinched her ear, yes she yelpted but has never done it since,well not with any intent liked she use to, (doesnt chase sheep anymore) yes there is a line of what is considered abuse and what is corrective treatment,

like i say i think smashing the hell out of an animal is so wrong but a light tap or pinch with vocal comments is fine. but it is important to do it while the negative behavior is happening not after as the message you are wanting to inforce could be assoiated with the wrong behavior ie shouting at a dog once it has come back to you after running off........ surely this should be highly praised and rewarded that they came back, with efforts made to let them know that running off is not excepted... think that makes sense or is it just ramblings???

Well, firstly - we aren't dogs. The expectations and requirements for a dog living in a pack with other dogs in the wild and in homes with humans are entirely different. Since we have domesticated dogs we expect and need them to fit into our lifestyles, we ask them to behave in a certain way and have manners and follow rules that don't exist in the wild. Prey drive is a perfect example - dogs have evolved to have prey drive because it's part of how they survive in the wild. When living with people we then expect our dogs not to do things like chase prey items and to come back when we call them even mid chase.

Many of our clients come to us because we are known for doing drive work and doing it well, there are a number of ways we'd train a dog to recall off prey, none involve ear pinching but all methods when done properly are extremely effective. I think it goes back to what I was saying earlier - I've never seen hitting a dog as the best or most effective method. I've never seen pinching a dog's ear give someone a reliable recall or teach the dog how to respond to commands in drive. If these 'methods' worked better than other methods and didn't have the issues that I mentioned above in my last post then I'd reconsider my view.

[SA DA KA]

ok i'll answer a few of your questions, if they are indeed questions:

why can you physically correct a child and not a dog? - answer to this is simple. Yeah if a kid "seriously" steps out of line they will get a crack, however the difference is that the child knows why. A dog does not if done for the first time, and therefore all it knows is you hurt it. That imo is certainly not fair and i will never agree with it. The only time i would ever even entertain hitting a dog is if he/she had hold of another person/dog and would not let go, and then its through complete lack of option.

hit for chasing the cat? if you are doing this i urge you to completely stop that now. If you think this is fine then you have obviously not researched about having a husky in the first place. Huskies have a very high pray drive and they will chase/even kill small animals. You are hitting him for an instinct he may be unable to control. Its the equivilant of someone hitting you when you jump after touching a hot fire. Its instinctive.

play hitting? if you are punching and stopping a few inches from his nose, and you have accidentally hit him a few times. Stop it. Its not rocket science and im sorry but that is plain irresponsible regardless of your training methods. You are doing something that could potentially hurt your dog when doing nothing wrong, and then trying to teach him that when you hurt him he is doing something wrong. Therefore everytime you hit him my accident you have just taught him he is not allowed to play (by your own training method)

also just to note, you say you are the only person using this method. That in itself makes your training pointless as you have given only yourself the tools to correct your dog. All you have done is stopped anyone else from correcting your dog, and im sorry if this offends but one day someone will be bitten. Its not an if, its a when.

thank you marc, well put!!!

[jmscott]

In my personal opinion and from my experience, when it comes to physical corrections most humans are not equipped with the necessary skills and timing to properly read behaviors and respond to them.

[Bec]

In my personal opinion and from my experience, when it comes to physical corrections most humans are not equipped with the necessary skills and timing to properly read behaviors and respond to them.

Timing and being able to read a dog can be an issue for delivering positive reinforcement, too. I think it comes down to being good enough to teach people how to get the timing right (for both correcting and rewarding your dog).

[Prinzess]

I watched my other half get mad with our hound dog when we had her. Kirra was a high spirited excitable dog. That was her nature. My other half would deliberately get her excited while i tried to tone it down some, gently. One day because of my other halfs teachings and partly because a new visitor came. kirra became super excited and knocked my other halfs beer off the table.

Much to my horror and he did this in front of others. My other half scruffed her and rammed her into the kennel quite a number of times.

My 18 year old son has Aspergers and partial Autism. He rarely cries or even laughs. But this day Sam cried and cried. I was left trying to comfort a very shaken Kirra who absolutely adored my other half. She was seriously confused and frightened. This was the first and only time my other half lost it but it didn't just leave a mark on the dog but Sam and the visitors also.

I have told my other half, if I ever see you hurt our new pup Luka like you did Kirra then I will firstly smack you so hard in his face then you can pack your bags and leave. I will not have a dog hit for any reason. Watch how the pups mum disciplines her young. She puts a firm paw on them to let them know. I have on the very odd occasion smacked my children but wow it had to be a big deal. They hardly ever got any form of harsh discipline.

I am not judging you but you put your thread up knowing you would get a variety of responses. Their is such a thing as love out of fear and and as I want in Luka's case a love out of his wanting to please.

GL with trying a different method and I commend you for doing so

[frankmayfield]

"I will not have a dog hit for any reason."

"I have on the very odd occasion smacked my children but wow it had to be a big deal"

Your comments are strange. First you say that you would not hit a dog. Then, you go on to say that you "smacked" your children. I do not get that reasoning. You also mention that you would hit your husband if he touched your dog. You find it unforgivable if your husband smacks the dog, but it is OK for you to smack the children?

[Prinzess]

"I will not have a dog hit for any reason."

"I have on the very odd occasion smacked my children but wow it had to be a big deal"

Your comments are strange. First you say that you would not hit a dog. Then, you go on to say that you "smacked" your children. I do not get that reasoning. You also mention that you would hit your husband if he touched your dog. You find it unforgivable if your husband smacks the dog, but it is OK for you to smack the children?

See if I can clear this up some. A dog has a very very short term memory of what it has done. By the time you find out it has been forgotten. Two I do not want my lil man to become fearful and cower. Would rather see his head held high.

My children as stated hardly ever got a smack. I found other methods more successful. My Sam stole from the school and he did get a smack then. Nothing dramatic but a smack on the backside. He remembers it and he is grateful he did get that he told me at age 16. But the norm was no physical discipline.

Not my husband but boyfriend. All I can say, is you maybe needed to be there the day Kirra was abused like that. It brings hurt, fear and gut wrenching disgust to watch this happen to her. I was abused by my mother and I barely talk to her due to the memories. I didn't want this for my children or my animals. So I adopted different ways of parenting. But yeah...I would feel like smacking his face if I ever witness this abuse to an animal again. Wether I do or not I don't know but hell the feeling would be there. Animals and children do not understand this sort of treatment. I want to live in a gentler loving house. maybe because of my own background.

Not sure if any of that makes sense but anyways.

[Ravenwolf]

If my husky chases the cat he gets hit. I don't buy the instinct argument. I believe my dog is able to control the direction he points his body in, and he can also control the movement of his legs. I understand the cat looks fun to him.

To whomever said it's not working: it absolutely has worked. I thought I pointed it out in my initial post, but I'll say it again. People food is rarely messed with, the cat is seldom chased, and the husky only pulls when he's trying to catch something, or extremely excited to get to the dog park. More often than not, a tug of his leash reminds him.

You'll have to excuse me if this has been addressed already - I must confess I came into this late and haven't read every reply.

What can tell you is that if the dog is still chasing the cat - even if it's only rarely - then no, it didn't work. I got my husky at 7 years old and he was determined to catch and kill our cat on site. It took a very long time, but now he is subservient to the cat to the point where I have to get after the cat for bullying the dog! He was never hit as a form of correction (the only time he was ever struck was to make him let go the one time he actually caught and was shaking the cat and I put the boots to him until he let go - but that was a life or death situation). The lesson he learned wasn't "I don't chase the cat or I get hit," but "I'm not allowed to do anything but treat the cat with the utmost respect." All it took was consistency.

Now, the disadvantage was that he only learned we don't eat THIS kitty, but story would be different were he actually exposed to other cats. But suffice to say, mine is safe, and it's because my dog accepts the cat is above him (or at the very least under my protection and not to be touched) and does not avoid him out of fear of physical pain. In 4 years he has not once had another go at the cat.

Does anyone have any documented evidence of this? Any studies online? Anything I can read, other than the PC "don't hit your dog, it's bad" arguments?

I don't have anything online to direct you to, but I'm sure you can do the research if you look. But look at it from this point of view:

Hitting is a very primate thing to do. Dogs don't hit each other. They bite, they grapple, but they don't hit. Striking like that is a very foreign way of communicating and inflicting pain on them. Dogs communicate through body language, posturing, vocalizations and - if necessary - biting.

But even therein, biting is not a means of meting out punishment. If one dog is doing something another doesn't like, they don't walk up and just chomp on them as a means of discipline. They use body language to send them away, growl their warnings, and typically only resort to violence when those cues are ignored (or if the dog is a poorly socialized bully...). So escalating straight to yelling and a strike is shocking and scary, not to mention the pain, severe or not. A person doesn't have to beat their dog instill that fear of punishment.

Creatures like horses are a different matter entirely. They kick each other to get their point across, which is why the use of whips is commonplace and effective with them. They understand on a visceral level the connotation of a painful smack delivered by another. It's part of their language. Humans understand hitting as a form of painful punishment, and even if the strike is totally unnecessary we still have the capacity to put two and two together - I refused to go to my room, I got a spanking. There is no direct correlation between the two, but when ma says "if you don't get in there I'll tan your hide" I have full understanding of the consequence, even if I'm only 4 years old. I now know that the next time I refuse, she'll hit me. I think about that the next time I aim to misbehave. I can even take it a step further "if she'll hit me for that, what would she do if I broke the lamp?"

Dogs don't have these kind of reasoning skills. When the dog chases the cat, he's not thinking "oops, better not or I'll get a smack!" That only occurs to him after, or when he sees you approaching. Getting hit enough times after attempting something may indeed inhibit the behaviour, but it also doesn't guarantee preventing it when you aren't around to mete out the punishment. Since the solution is aversion not behaviour conditioning, if you - the source of the punishment - aren't there, there is nothing to dissuade the behaviour. The dog doesn't think "better not, he'll hit me when he comes back." They don't have that kind of foresight or capacity to make connections of gaps in time. When you come home and your body language speaks of your anger, your dog will cower and appear to be "guilty" but all he's reacting to is your immediate displeasure. There is no connection and immediate understanding that stealing food off the counter at 9:00am is why you are angry at 6:00pm.

Kind of long-winded, but does that make sense? I'm not opposed to physical correction at all, but the act of hitting/smacking a dog is - in my opinion - abuse purely because it is a non-communicative way of inflicting pain under the pretense of discipline. It teaches aversion based on fear instead of behaviour modification. Behaviour modification is easy, it just takes consistency and repetition and doesn't have the instant yet short-lived effect of a smack on the muzzle.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ravenwolf

[Removed #4]

I dont hate you in the SLIGHTEST for this.

I do the same with my boy, although I can be a bit more lenient than you.

Sometimes I will even get down, growl, bare my teeth, snip and bark at him. People think Im completely insane... But its the most effective thing I can use when he is being out of line.

When he used to hump people or other dogs, I would give him a swift closed fisted smack/punch to the hip. Didnt take long before he stopped humping things. He definitely still tries to dominate other big dogs, but he completely stopped humping people or smaller dogs.

I am behind your method of teaching more than 100%, dogs learn through physical action. Its how they learn from each other, and can easily learn the same way from humans with wonderful results.

[AttilaVikingsDemon]

I certainly don't like the tone of this entire thread-especially certain people attacking [MENTION=2509]HuskyHijinx[/MENTION]-shame on you! Attila out!

Edited June 26, 2012 by AttilaVikingsDemon

[Michelle Melsom]

While I'm not one for hitting an animals everyone does have their own methods as long as its not a real hard hit that makes them yelp. Its the way my moms side of the family trained their animals and they had a farm with everything raccoons, a monkey and your typical farm animals and that's just how they learned. It wasn't hard enough to make them yelp but was more of an attention getter it was open handed never kicks or fists.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Michelle Melsom

[Jeramyeggs]

What I find so interesting is that some people swear up and down that we have domesticated dogs to a point that they are no longer like their wolf counterparts,then proceed to talk about about all of the instincts that dogs still carry like their cousins. My last Husky broke a fawns back, dragged it up into the yard, and stood on it to make it scream in hopes to lure the mother from the tree line...So I understand prey drive from seeing it firsthand. He was a rescue, and he had been on his own in the wild multiple times for long periods of time. His hunting skills were top notch. He was also one of the sweetest dogs I have ever known. He knew when my wifes seizures were coming, and be with her. He would push himself under her to help her get up from the floor,even when it might hurt to do so. All of the training, and behavier we have learned about dogs is just the tip of the iceberg. Living with dogs is such an intricate web. All dogs are different. All people are different. Every day is different.

I am not commenting one way or another, just entertained at how people volley back and forth to explain their beliefs. Not that I have ever tried it, but pinching an ear would be very similar to a bite on the ear. I am certain that a slight pinch is more humane than a shock collar.I have seen a dog roll another dog with such force that it would be similar to a kick. My old Lab got tired of the same Husky trying to mount him, and grabbed his back leg, and dragged him thru the house bouncing him off of furniture,and walls. We didn't get involved because the husky tried to mount him for about a month and a half,and the Lab always just sat down to try to curb it. When he didn't get the message, the Lab moved on to a more physical response. He didn't try to sink his teeth in,and there was no blood. He just had to prove he was more powerful than the Husky, and that it wasn't accepted.He never tried to mount him again.Physical discipline exists in the wild. One would think that if you were trying to fix a wild "instinct", physical discipline would be closer to a dogs level of thinking than a reward system.

If dogs have such short attention spans, why would my Lab hang his head when I got home from ripping into the trash before lunch? He knew what he did was wrong, and remembered it from 4 hours ago. These are just some thoughts of mine as I cruised thru this thread. I am by no means saying anyone's way is better or worse, just that people have different ways of doing things. My grandfather who passed away years ago used to put his coon dogs in a modified barrel. Once the dogs stuck their noses out the small hole he put in the back, he would spray deer urine in their face, and roll it on some rollers with a lever. Inside the barrel he put rocks. It would beat the poor dogs senseless. You know what though? They never chased deer. He sold his dogs for a lot of money, without papers, or being a pure bred. People would drive from 2 states away to buy one of his dogs. I would never condone doing this to an animal, just showing how people used to treat their dogs, and how different we are today.

I would never recommend hurting your animal. But a quick tag to the butt for nipping my children seems to work much better than them stopping the interaction, and ignoring the dog. My pup continues to hop up, and nip their clothing, arms,and legs. By them doing this they have to leave the room/she has to be put in her crate,and it seems to prove to her that they are beneath her in the order of things. My quick tap shows her that as the "master",I will not allow this. This is not in anger,and it is less than what her own mother would do if she was hurting her littermates. I understand she is a very young, and doesn't know any better so these corrections are not done in anger,but as teaching moments. I don't condone abuse of any sort, as I have been on the receiving end.

My final comment on this is wrestling with your dog the way you do. My friend had a bloodhound that he did the same thing with. When he had to move out of state, he had to take it to the shelter. No one would take the dog from him.He had become so forceful that he had to be put down within days at the shelter. He was too big, and strong. What he saw was play hurt other people, and no one at the shelter would get anywhere near him. His growling, and snapping his jaws had become so intimidating that he lost his life. It was very sad. Please don't end up on the same road. Someday you might have children, and if he behaved that way with them, the choice would kill both of you....

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Bec]

Jeramyeggs

What I find so interesting is that some people swear up and down that we have domesticated dogs to a point that they are no longer like

their wolf counterparts,then proceed to talk about about all of the instincts that dogs still carry like their cousins.

Even wild dogs show different behaviour to wolf packs, we really do dogs a disservice to compare them to wolves all the time. Dogs are not wolves, and just because a dog shows instinctive behaviour, doesn’t mean they are the same as an entirely different species.

My last Husky broke a fawns back, dragged it up into the yard, and stood on it to make it scream in hopes to lure the mother from the tree line...So I understand prey drive from seeing it firsthand. He was a rescue, and he had been on his own in the wild multiple times for long periods of time. His hunting skills were top notch. He was also one of the sweetest dogs I have ever known. He knew when my wifes seizures were coming, and be with her. He would push himself under her to help her get up from the floor,even when it might hurt to do so. All of the training, and behavier we have learned about dogs is just the tip of the iceberg. Living with dogs is such an intricate web. All dogs are different. All people are different. Every day is different.

I’m not sure what the point is here? Of course domesticated dogs display instinctive behaviour. I’m not sure where I’ve ever seen this argued by anyone in this thread?

I am not commenting one way or another, just entertained at how people volley back and forth to explain their beliefs. Not that I have ever tried it, but pinching an ear would be very similar to a bite on the ear. I am certain that a slight pinch is more humane than a shock collar.

I’ve got an e-collar here you are welcome to test out yourself, I guarantee a low level stim is not remotely painful and when used that way the stim is a cue not a punishment so your comparison doesn’t really stand up… Regardless, e-collars can be used to build extremely reliable recalls in a very short period of time, I’ve never seen hitting, smacking or pinching a dog produce anywhere near the same quality results.

I have seen a dog roll another dog with such force that it would be similar to a kick.

I’ve seen other dogs attack and severely injure other dogs. Some dogs kill other dogs. Does that make it ok?

My old Lab got tired of the same Husky trying to mount him, and grabbed his back leg, and dragged him thru the house bouncing him off of furniture,and walls. We didn't get involved because the husky tried to mount him for about a month and a half,and the Lab always just sat down to try to curb it. When he didn't get the message, the Lab moved on to a more physical response. He didn't try to sink his teeth in,and there was no blood. He just had to prove he was more powerful than the Husky, and that it wasn't accepted.He never tried to mount him again.Physical discipline exists in the wild. One would think that if you were trying to fix a wild "instinct", physical discipline would be closer to a dogs level of thinking than a reward system.

I don’t think the argument in this thread is really about whether or not physical corrections are wrong, but there is a difference between hitting a dog and using a training collar or similar to deliver a correction appropriately. I discussed the difference between the two earlier in the thread when the OP asked what the difference was between hitting a dog and using a prong collar. There are times when dogs develop habits we don’t like that require the use of aversives to change, but there are ways to use aversives that are more safe and effective than others. Physically confronting the ‘wrong’ dog can land you in a lot of serious trouble.

I don’t agree with you that physically correcting a dog is ‘closer’ to a dog’s level of thinking than rewarding behaviour. What drives a dog’s behaviour? Either gaining a reward or avoiding correction. Seeking reward and drive satisfaction is an extremely strong and ingrained instinct. Look at how strong prey drive is – we train MANY dogs using drive training and get extremely reliable and super results without the use of any physical corrections. Never doubt the power of a dog’s desire for drive satisfaction or reward. That is how a dog’s behaviour becomes habitual in the first place. Seeking reward is what drives their survival.

If dogs have such short attention spans, why would my Lab hang his head when I got home from ripping into the trash before lunch? He knew what he did was wrong, and remembered it from 4 hours ago.

That’s nothing to do with your dog’s attention span, but the way they think and the way their mind works. Dogs aren’t people and don’t have a moral compass to understand what we would consider is right or wrong; they don’t have the ability to feel remorse or regret. My guess would be that he was showing appeasing behaviour in reaction to your body language upon seeing the trash everywhere.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Bec

[LittleLuka]

I certainly don't like the tone of this entire thread-especially certain people attacking @HuskyHijinx-shame on you! Attila out!

i don't feel like anyone attacked her. they simply responded to her posts. i think youre trying to beat a dead horse. can we not just drop this? sheesh. this is not what HO is about... AT ALL.

[Austinville]

Like the question of having huskies off lead and those regarding breeding of pet quality huskies, physical correction is one of those topics that IMO, that we each are very passionate about, have strong opinions on and take very personally. I think this thread has created enough drama.

I also believe that we are all adults and there is no sense in beating one another to bits and we should all use our own common sense and simply let this thread die a slow death.

Lets move on, please.