Pack rules

[Siberianski]

I saw this online the other day and i am just wondering how many people with there dogs follow this too the letter? I dont think its sibe/mally specific mind.

I will be honest we do about half of them and have recently started doing the rest gradually, we have a rescue dog in who at the minute is a flipping nightmare(another story) and a twelve month old sibe(adopted) and a 8month old. Since we have stepped up following more the dogs are improving/more response etc

We took our youngest through puppy training at two levels and luckily had a really good trainer so alot of these were already getting done.

Rules to ensure you stay pack leader and Alpha

1. The number one way to communicate to a dog that you are his pack leader is to take him for a walk. Not the type of walk most humans take their dogs on but a pack walk, where the dog is made to heel beside or behind the human who is holding the lead. This is most important for all dogs, as in a dog's mind, the leader always leads the way. A dog must not be allowed to sniff or eliminate anywhere he wishes, but where you allow him. One marking against a tree is enough for male dogs. The dog should be concentrating on following the human, not worrying about leading the way. This pack-type walk should be done daily. Not only will this release built-up energy, but it will satisfy the dog's instinct to migrate which all dogs possess. Dogs that have excess energy bottled up inside them and that do not have their migration instinct met will develop various instability issues that most people mistake for being breed traits.

2. All humans must eat before the dogs, as the leader always eats first. When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dog’s food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl (the leader always eats first).

3. No table scraps should be fed to the dogs during a meal.

4. Feedings must be at a scheduled time. (No self-feeding dog food dispensers should be used, as this allows the dog to choose when he eats.)

5. Humans must not let the dog go through any doorways first. Or up or down any stairways first. Dogs must always go through the doorways and up and down stairs after the humans, as the leader of the pack always goes first. If the dog does not stay behind the humans, the dog must be told to "stay" and given the command to "come" after all humans have passed through. (Read Training to find out the necessary basic commands all dogs should know. These commands are vital in the communication between you and your dog and should always be taught.)

6. When you leave the house or the room, even for a minute, ignore the dog for a few minutes upon your return.

7. A simple obedience command such as “sit†should be given before any pleasurable interaction with the dog (i.e., play session, petting, feeding, a walk, etc.). The children should give the dog commands at least once a day and reward with a treat when the command is followed. A simple “sit†will do. No treat should be awarded if the dog does not follow the command. Show your dog he does not get anything for free. His food, water, treats, even praise/love have to be earned by doing something. Even something as little as sit, come, or making him wait for the treat while you hold it in front of him. Make sure the dog takes the treat from your hands gently. Do not tolerate a mouthy dog.

8. You should not lie on the floor to watch TV when the dog is around and no one should roll around the floor playing with the dog, as a human should never put himself in an equal or lesser height position than the dog.

9. You are the one who greets newcomers first, the dog is the last to get attention (the pack leader is the one who greets newcomers and lets the rest know when it is safe to greet the newcomer).

10. If a dog is lying in your path, do not walk around the dog, either make the dog move or step over the dog.

11. During the time you are establishing your higher pack position, no hugs should be given to the dog by you, as a dominant dog may consider this a challenge of power.

12. If you establish eye contact with the dog, the dog must avert his gaze first. If the human averts first this reinforces the dog’s higher power position. Tell the children not to have staring contests with the dog, as if they avert or blink first, it will only reinforce, in the dog’s mind, that he is Top Dog.

13. Ideally, dogs should not sleep in your bed. In the dog world the most comfortable place to sleep is reserved for the higher members of the pack. If a dog is allowed to sleep on the bed, the dog must be invited up and not be allowed to push the humans out of the way. Making them sleep at the foot of the bed rather than, for example, on your pillow is best.

14. Dogs must never be allowed to mouth or bite anyone at any time, including in play.

15. Any attention given to the dog, including petting, should be given when the human decides attention is to be given (absolutely no petting when the dog nudges or paws you or your hand. This would be letting the dog decide and reinforcing, in his mind, that he is higher on the scale than the human.)

16. Games of fetch or play with toys must be started and ended by the human.

17. Very dominant dogs that have a problem with growling should not be allowed to lie on your furniture, as the leader of the pack always gets the most comfortable spot. Dogs belong on the floor. If you do decide to allow your dog on the furniture, you must be the one who decides when he is allowed up and you must be the one who decides when he is to get off, by inviting him up, and telling him to get down.

18. No tug-of-war, as this is a game of power and you may lose the game, giving the dog a reinforcement (in the dog's mind) of top dog.

19. Dogs need to be taught a “drop it†or release command. Any objects the dog has in his possession should be able to be taken away by all humans.

20. Dogs own no possessions, everything belongs to the humans. They are all on "loan" from the human family. You should be able to handle or remove any item at all times from the dog with no problems from the dog. Even if you are taking a chicken bone out of the dog's mouth.

21. Dogs should not be allowed to pull on the leash. When they do this they are leading the way and it is the humans that need to lead the way and show they're higher up in the pack order. (In the wild, the leader of the pack always leads the way; the leader leads the hunt.)

22. When you put his food dish down, he must wait until you give the "OK" to eat it. Place his food on the ground and tell him to wait. If he darts at the food, block him with your body. You can point at him and tell him, "No, wait," however do not speak much. Dogs are, for the most part, silent communicators. They feel one another's energy and your dog can feel yours. Yes, your dog can read your emotions. So stand tall and think "big" and stay confident. Do not be nervous, your dog will sense this and assume you are weak. It is this weakness that triggers a dog to try and take over (for the good of the pack; the pack needs a strong leader). Give the dog a command before giving the food. If a dog does not follow the command (i.e. to sit), he does not eat. Try again in about 20 minutes or longer. Repeat this until the dog listens to the command. When your dog calms down and waits patiently, (ears set back, head lowered even slightly, lying down is good if he is relaxed with his ears back, no signs of growling on his face) invite him to eat his food. The people in the family the dog growls at should feed the dog the majority of the time.

23. Small dogs or puppies that demand to be picked up or put down should not get what they want until they sit or do another acceptable quiet behavior. They should not be put down unless they are settled quietly in your arms.

24. Dogs should never be left unsupervised with children or anyone who cannot maintain leadership over the dog.

25. To reinforce your position even more, you can make your dog lie down and stay there for 20 to 30 minutes a day. Tell him to lie down, then tell him to stay. If he tries to get up, correct him.

26. Last but certainly not least...when you are around your dog avoid emotions such as fear, anxiety, harshness or nervousness. Your dog can sense these emotions and will see you as weak. This will escalate your problem as your dog feels an even stronger need to be your leader. Think Big and Powerful and be calm, assertive, and consistent. Remember, there is no hiding our emotions from our dogs. They can, in a sense, read our minds in reading our emotions. This energy is the universal language of animals. Talk less, using more body language. Picture yourself, in your own mind, as big, powerful and very sure of yourself. Pull your shoulders back and stand up straight. Your dog will feel this. This is your number one resource when it comes to communicating with your dog. Your dog will be happy and secure knowing he has a strong pack leader to care for him.

[Ravenwolf]

Where did you find this? It looks suspiciously to me like someone watched a bunch of episodes of Dog Whisperer and just jotted down all the things that may have been mentioned at points in the show.

I'm all about rules for your dog, but these are Draconian and some of them are downright ridiculous. This list basically removes all forms of play except fetch, which not all dogs - least of which huskies! - play. "8. You should not lie on the floor to watch TV when the dog is around and no one should roll around the floor playing with the dog, as a human should never put himself in an equal or lesser height position than the dog." Whoever wrote this has no concept of play with dogs. They won't consider themselves dominant just because they "won" at a game. I do agree that a person should be able to end a game at any time - I wrestle with Scout more than any other dog I've had because that's how he loves to play. I'll let him be sprawled across me, gnawing on my arm, but the moment I say "enough" the game is over and he backs away so I can get up. I'm totally okay with dogs mouthing during play - as far as I'm concerned those dogs have far better bite inhibition than dogs who never lay teeth on people, because they have a much better idea of what is considered too hard a bite for humans to appreciate. I have never seen a correlation (in my own dogs anyway) between play-biting and increased likelihood of an actual bite.

[Hyshqa]

Absolute pants! The rules I have set out for my dogs are for their own good and/or for basic manners, not to make myself feel superior

Love number 4 - god forbid we let our dogs make a decision! And number 5 - do these owners leap out of their seat while they're watching tv to rush ahead and walk through the doorway first when their dog wants to leave the room? What if the dogs needs to pee and it's raining? Will the owner go out first? Haha. I could go on and on and on

[Emma]

Agree with the above posts. What a load of poo! You don't have to follow all of these to have some control over your dog, just be consistent and try positive reward training. To coin a phrase "it's better to dangle a carrot than beat with a stick". Which basically means your dogs will have a much better attitude and healthy respect if encouraged and praised.

[Paranormal Wolf]

Echoing the others and I had the same thought as [MENTION=5937]Ravenwolf[/MENTION] did, sounds like someone listed a bunch of things they herd from the dog whisper show and presented them as rules. My dogs have set rules, they know these rules and follow them. Do they match the rules above? Hardly. My dogs and I will play wrestle quite often, they will and do mouth me when we play and I'm totally fine with this as they have been taught bite inhibition. Once I'm finished playing I say ok and they stop and either play with each other or go off to sleep. I never worry that they will bite me one day, if they do get a little rough all I have to say is ouch and they stop. The only dog I play tug with is Koopa because the others don't like the game. Koopa is an 80 pound pit bull so you can imagine he is strong and can tug really hard. He has "won" the game many times but never tries to be the leader over me. He just brings the rope back for more and if I no longer want to play I just tell him ok done and he goes away. My dogs are by far not angles on the leash, only Tenchi is actually good at loose leash walking and huskies are bred to pull so more than likely they will pull. I also let my dogs go out the door first just because its easier for me to do so. Does all this mean my dogs don't see me as their pack leader? I don't think so because they never try to act above me. They know what me and Tim allow and what we don't, they know that we set the rules and we all live quit happily in our pack

[Elyse]

I must admit, I followed these 'rules' constantly until I joined these forums. Then, I gradually became more relaxed once I realized I didn't have to be all 'Alpha' all the time. Now, I enjoy his company and I'm pretty sure we have a better bond now than ever before.

[jmscott]

What a load of it! These kinds of "rules" are causing all kinds of issues because of people not understanding or recognizing canine behavior and taking CM word for word that the world is flat. That is not to say that the world isn't there, just that the perspective his view gives is a little skewed. I like the way this trainer talks about the "dominance theory". As with any information, I suggest analyzing it, think it over, and then decide if it is worth trying or incorporating into your household.

http://leecharleskelleysblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/cesar-millan-pack-leader-or-predator_22.html

[Kara]

I find most of this to be bull-crap.... I'm not living with a wild wolf. However we are teaching the dogs to wait for us to go through the front door and front gate after we do and on command, this is to have some orderly control over the start of an outing. and yes I do require my dogs to move or I step over them, but this is because our place is small and I have no choice...lol and yes of course I own everything the dog has, if I had kids I'd own everything a kid has too, since I bought or brought it home! and yes I take things away when needed, but I do allow my dogs to have that special toy that they have bonded with no matter what, if they are mad or sad or scared or happy and want it, then that one special toy is theirs and I will also ensure that no other dog gets it away from them either, kind of like your child's blankie or teddy. anyways, basically yes its a theory, and all areas of theories can be taken into different directions and broken up and used in different ways to meet different needs for different dogs. But most of this sounds like orphanage abuse when typed out!

But then again I am "owned by a husky", so what to I know?

Can't tame a husky's spirit!

[Husky Sevillana]

But then again I am "owned by a husky", so what to I know?

Can't tame a husky's spirit!

Very pertinent comment... I don't trust very much in César Millán (The Dog Whisperer) because he use different methods for different dog breeds, and probably these pack rules work with some dogs, but not all. Why? because dogs ARE NOT WOLVES. You can call it "Pack" owing to the fact that the structure is very similar but really it's a mix between society and pack (it depends of the dog).

I know 2 examples:

1st -> A Huskies closed-pack (3 males and 2 females) - It was divided from the human "micro-society"... the Alpha were the female huskies and above this female Alpha, were the 2 husky-owners. Their children were at the same level that the female Alphas. The children could touch males huskies food but not female huskies.

Differences between husky closed-pack and wolf closed-pack: It can just exist a male Alpha, and it's established by aggressivity (fights). If they were wolves, the children were bitten by the female husky years ago. It's a friend's pack ^^ They're so beautiful but a little bit wild.

2nd -> A human-husky society (2 males and 1 female) - Again, Alpha husky is the female, all humans are above the Huskies pack because these dogs have been adapted to this society. Husky owners establish their social rules, not these Wolf rules, and the dogs adapt to them for coexisting at ease.

In the first, social rules weren't probably established and the dogs are a little more wild. But never wolves Of course, I just take my husky to play with the second ones. She has fun playing with them

[Siberianski]

I bought a siberian husky book from pets at home pre getting our first sibe and it had a set of rules similar to this in it. Was only ten though, i researched and put in pack leader in google and this came up.

as i said i dont follow all of them

the comments re the door thing ie number 5 does not refer to every time your dogs goes out the room. It refers to when you talk the dogs for a walk and go out your front door etc. If you cant understand the psychology of that i aint explaining it

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

well, we do eat dinner before we feed them.

we do make them sit for treats, and have the kids do it. the kids love to do "training" with them.

we do allow them to have treats from the plate occasionally but only after you have finished eating.

as for going out the door before them, yeah not easy when they are on a walking belt lol.

we do try to ensure we can take things from them, angel not so much but storm will give up anything.

[Bec]

LOL these things always crack me up. How ridiculous. Most of them don't even make any sense!

[persephona]

I don't know where they come up with these things from... some of them are absolutely ridiculous and have no scientific basis at all.

What owner would want to live by this set of rules? It takes out all the fun in dog ownership!

[davidjk]

i am glad i am not the only one who thinks these rules are a little silly.

[jmscott]

The idea of you going through a door first is simply basic manners. Going through the doorway first helps curb bolting behaviors and allows you to assess what is going on outside before bringing your dog out.

[Bec]

I agree going through a door first can be basic manners, although it wouldn't work for police dogs etc that HAVE to go through the door first to search an area or room!

[Ravenwolf]

As I read through these, you know, I DO do a lot of them, but it's not exactly with the same mentality as these come across. I think these - and people who often promote these rules - view them as absolute, but they don't necessarily have to be.

1. I DO restrict my dogs' marking and sniffing while they're heeled. When they're heeled, we're walking together - a pack walk if you will. But mostly it's because when they're heeled, they're heeled. I can't stand being dragged to every bush/fence/hydrant/post along the street because they want to read and reply to every message board. Pulling is rude, so I don't allow it. However, that's not to say that every walk is a bloody forced march! I start and end every walk that way - primarily because I don't like them running about people's front yards or ahead of me at intersections - but in between they get to go out on the leash and do their exploring/sniffing/marking as they please.

2. I used to insist on this, but no longer do. In fact, now I actually prefer to feed them first - usually well in advance of when we eat - because then they are less excitable and less prone to hovering while we eat.

3. "No table scraps should be fed to the dogs during a meal." I agree 100%. This promotes begging, and I HATE begging.

4. We typically feed at the same time each day, but it's not a hard and fast rule. If our roommate is home, the dogs tend to bark at him and demand to be fed - we've made sure that they do NOT get fed when they do that, but sent outside. So they're usually pretty good about waiting, but still let us know when they're hungry!

5. No going through doors first - I like and employ this rule with main doors and gates. It doesn't mean every single door/passage in the house! That's just absurd, and I always laugh when people use that as an explanation as to why it's a silly rule. No - front door, back door, exit gate and garage door. I take it a step farther though - they don't just have to wait for me to go first, they have to wait for me to say "okay" before they can go. Sometimes I send them through first if it's practical to do so.

6. "When you leave the house or the room, even for a minute, ignore the dog for a few minutes upon your return." Er, why?? I mean, if I go upstairs to grab a glass of water I'm not coming back down all "who's my favourite boy, did you miss me? Mummy wuvs you!" But please. Unless your dog is over-the-top excited to greet you, I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging them if it's warranted. If they're lying quietly, then yeah, just leave them the hell alone!

7. Command before reward - I agree. Mine pretty well sit for everything. Especially with big dogs, I like them to learn that if they want attention, they sit. That way there's not pawing, no jumping up to get attention from someone - especially a child! - they just sit expectantly in front of the person. It's easy to teach a dog to take food from your hand gently - I don't tolerate snatching either.

8. "You should not lie on the floor to watch TV when the dog is around and no one should roll around the floor playing with the dog, as a human should never put himself in an equal or lesser height position than the dog." I already mentioned above why this one is stupid. It's not a damned tiger!

9. "You are the one who greets newcomers first, the dog is the last to get attention." Well, yes, but again, it's because they have to wait politely for attention.

10. "If a dog is lying in your path, do not walk around the dog, either make the dog move or step over the dog." I do this if they're in the way, mostly because when they lie down in certain areas there IS no way around them. I do want my dog to be obedient and respectful enough of me to move when he's in my way - I get very upset if I have to push or trip over them because they're underfoot!

11. "During the time you are establishing your higher pack position, no hugs should be given to the dog by you, as a dominant dog may consider this a challenge of power." I think this is just a lameass way of saying "don't hug a dog you don't know." Because mounting and throwing paws over the back IS a way that dogs show dominance, hugging a dog you aren't familiar with can be construed as a threat.

12. Eye contact can't be summed up in one little point. Every time you happen to catch your dog's eye it does not have to be a staring contest! There IS an element to communication and challenge can be presented with eye contact, but it's not every damned time you look at him.

13. I agree with no dogs on the bed. I'm all about keeping a clean bed and don't even allow the dogs in the upstairs, nevermind the bedroom. But I believe this rule applies to all furniture. I don't allow them on the couch unless they are invited. I invite them a lot - pretty well any time I'm there too, but they never go on without invitation, and they get up when I get up or send them off.

14. "Dogs must never be allowed to mouth or bite anyone at any time, including in play." I also mentioned this above. I'm okay with mouthing and play biting so long as it's invited, gentle, and stops when I say so.

15. "Any attention given to the dog, including petting, should be given when the human decides attention is to be given (absolutely no petting when the dog nudges or paws you or your hand. This would be letting the dog decide and reinforcing, in his mind, that he is higher on the scale than the human.)" I agree, UNLESS the dog asks politely. As I said, I encourage mine to sit before attention. If one lays down in front of me and shows his belly for a scrub, I'm happy to oblige. Scout is funny because his way of asking is to sit with his back to you. I highly doubt that in his mind he's thinking "yes! Turns out I really AM top dog because I get attention when I ask for it!"

16. "Games of fetch or play with toys must be started and ended by the human." I agree, but mostly because it addresses obedience issues. If you're playing fetch and the dog decides he's done and wanders off and won't come to your call - that's a problem.

17. "Very dominant dogs that have a problem with growling should not be allowed to lie on your furniture, as the leader of the pack always gets the most comfortable spot. Dogs belong on the floor. If you do decide to allow your dog on the furniture, you must be the one who decides when he is allowed up and you must be the one who decides when he is to get off, by inviting him up, and telling him to get down." I agree with this - I don't allow any dog on the furniture without permission, and only for as long as I say so. I have no patience for having to make an animal move out of my spot.

18. "No tug-of-war, as this is a game of power and you may lose the game, giving the dog a reinforcement (in the dog's mind) of top dog." Lame. Again, play with dogs involves a lot of give and take. Like humans, if one dog always wins it's no fun. Just be the one to end the game when you'd had enough and there is no issue.

19. "Dogs need to be taught a “drop it” or release command. Any objects the dog has in his possession should be able to be taken away by all humans." Agree.

20. "Dogs own no possessions, everything belongs to the humans. They are all on "loan" from the human family. You should be able to handle or remove any item at all times from the dog with no problems from the dog. Even if you are taking a chicken bone out of the dog's mouth." Same as above basically. Just a more Draconian way of putting it.

21. "Dogs should not be allowed to pull on the leash. When they do this they are leading the way and it is the humans that need to lead the way and show they're higher up in the pack order. (In the wild, the leader of the pack always leads the way; the leader leads the hunt). This is just stretching to make the "wild pack" theory fit. It's not that they're showing they're dominant or higher in status than you, it's that they want to go that way, and if they can they will. It's a lack of respect for the leash and the boundaries of it, not a deliberate expression of dominance. Dogs should not be allowed to pull on the leash because it's rude, and can actually be downright dangerous. My husband is over 250lbs and he has been pulled off his feet by our dogs, because if you let 2 huskies pull - they will, and how!

22. "When you put his food dish down, he must wait until you give the "OK" to eat it." I do this too. Again, because I hate rude dogs. Shoving their face in the bowl as you put it down is obnoxious and disrespectful. It's mine until I say it isn't.

23. "Small dogs or puppies that demand to be picked up or put down should not get what they want until they sit or do another acceptable quiet behavior. They should not be put down unless they are settled quietly in your arms." This is just same as #15, but for footballs.

24. "Dogs should never be left unsupervised with children or anyone who cannot maintain leadership over the dog." Agree.

25. "To reinforce your position even more, you can make your dog lie down and stay there for 20 to 30 minutes a day. Tell him to lie down, then tell him to stay. If he tries to get up, correct him." This just sounds like a pointless exercise to me.

26. Blah blah blah. Sounds lame, but there IS some truth to it. Dogs do respond far better to a calm, confident person than they do to one who is fearful/worried/angry/etc. I believe that most dogs are more than happy to be followers and want to please, and problems do arise when a person doesn't give them consistent expectations for how to behave.

[Siberianski]

as i said we dont follow all of them we follow the below

1) Putting food down yes and making them wait yes: our youngest sibe aurora is an absolutely food hoover only dog i have seen who eats while holding her breath lol she gets mega excited and then hoovers it, pre doing this she used to as a pup eat her food then on occasions bring it back up again now re feeding she more chilled and no regurgitating food.

2) The going through house front door yes- we have 3 sibes all three bounding through door at same time is a nightmare, me going through first then making them sit while i lock up pre walk definetly easier

3) Begging speaks for itself- our dogs stay in kitchen when we eat

4) furniture thing yes- our sibes two of them are under 12months and husky play on furniture is a no no plus i agree with this as it shows dominance as they are trying to get to our level i am the boss not them

5) the eating in front of them- yes defo it makes them understand i am boss and that i eat first chills them out as they see me eating they no there food coming and they go in there crates and dont go hyper

6) we never let them upstairs this is really down to the fact this sounds daft but we have no wood floors upstairs peeps will understand this but have you seen how much hair comes off three sibes lol

we do follow some of the others but not as rigidly

[Mazz]

Well, at least I'm not a total failure with our two. The bottom line for me, is I want to know my dogs, who they are, what they are thinking, and what motivates them. I want them to trust me, and to rely on me, without any reservation. And I want to be able to enjoy them and at the same time, I want them to be happy, heathy, and hearty.

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