'Many die' in US school shooting

[Paranormal Wolf]

Don't take me wrong @Paranormal Wolf, I'm not just being argumentative but I think everyone is affected by this. There isn't a one of us who either doesn't have kids / grandkids or friends with kids and incidents like these have to make one wonder if they're going to be safe at school today and that really sucks! Kids should be safe, at least at home and school where they have people to watch over them. Kids get hurt enough just as a natural part of growing up, broken arms from falling out of trees - that's all too natural, getting shot by a deranged idiot (only because I can't put anything much stronger here) is not.

After events like these, aren't we all a little more insecure??

I don't dispute this. Of course we are all in some way affected, just some more than others. I only meant that my thoughts are with the victims, community, and the families that lost their loved ones. Wasn't in any way trying to down play the wide reaching impact that it has.

[Jay]

I am a gun owner. I do some shooting at a range near my home. Where are my guns right now? Locked in a secure 500lb gun safe. It is a serious problem in the US. The NRA has lobbied heavily in all states for right to carry laws. Many states have them now and obtaining a gun is fairly easy if you have a clean background. Even easier if you go to a gun show where background checks are not always done. It is a very serious issue and I hope this country wakes up and does not let these kids' deaths fall into oblivion.

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It's too bad there are not more responsible gun owners like yourself. The country would be a much safer place

[Elyse]

This has been on the news all day today. It's really sad.

As for the gun laws in the U.S.A, my news station got some facts. I can't find the exact quote, cause I heard it on TV, but something like 9000 people are killed in the US every year by gun murders alone. In Canada, it's like 1500, and in the UK is 18.

But yeah, I agree...the US of A really has to clean up their act when it comes to gun control. First off all, I think these 'gun shows' have to go. There's just too many private sales going on, which don't require any background checks at all. Then, they should put in a registry that blacklists all people who tried to get a gun, but failed due to mental health issues or whatever (as far as I know, this kind of system isn't in place?)

The thing is, its really hard to enforce a gun control, or take away guns entirely, in a country that has had guns for...what...200+ years? In countries that have had strict laws to begin with, like Canada and the UK, its much easier to control guns. Its all in the mindset and the culture, I guess.

[Talos mom]

You have to think about all the people who kill without guns

Their are many many ways to take a human life guns are just the go to.

How can you take guns away from someone like myself and my family who have grown up hunting and still hunt for our meals.

Taking guns away will never be an option in the US and even if their are new stricter laws does anyone honestly think that criminals are going to follow them?

Also you have to think about the gang issues in california and the amount of guns illegally in circulation

Edited December 16, 2012 by Talos'mom

[Talos mom]

Just to put it in prospective It would be like taking away cars from everyone to prevent a fatal car accident.

Besides in a time like this we shouldnt be concerned with how guns caused this or the politics the gun didnt make this happen a very very disturbed man did and we should all be focusing on how blessed we truly are to still have our families and lives in tact and morn for those who don't.

It saddens me when I turn on CNN and already see a gun regulation debate or how they questioned the kids hours after the shooting. Very sad and almost sickening reporting

[LittleLuka]

I don't understand why everyone wants to debate gun laws over this.

It's extremely upsetting that everyone is making this into a debate when we should be focused on the innocent children and adults who have lost their lives....

I own guns and I agree there should probably be stricter laws put into place but criminals will always find guns....

This is all I can think about :

[ATTACH]66063[/ATTACH]

[LittleLuka]

Rough followup:

The shooter lived in New Jersey

His father was found dead at their house.

His mother was a kindergarten teacher at the school and the shooter went into her room and started shooting. Apparently most of the children victims were her students.

I cannot fathom what would be going through his mind, I cannot even begin to fathom what those children at the school will go through when it comes time to return to school, presumably, after the holidays now.

This goes completely beyond horrific!!!

New update:

His mother was found dead at their home

She wasn't a teacher at the school. I've heard she volunteered there and the whole altercation began when he wasn't allowed at the school a few days ago. 3 of the 4 individuals involved from the school are now deceased including the principal and psychologist/ therapist

[Rosemary]

Years ago the SA government asked citizens to hand in their legal guns to be destroyed, and promised no action and no questions asked to people who handed in illegal guns. Thousands of law abiding citizens complied ........... the criminal element in SA did not, the result - the law abiding citizens are at the mercy of gun toting criminals.

It took my daughter almost 4 years to get a licence to have a gun. She persevered, as she refuses to be at the mercy of a criminal in her own home. I don't have a gun and will not have one in my house as they terrify me, but have no problem with other people owning guns for self defense or hunting.

Guns in the wrong hands can kill, but so do many other weapons, including the very ordinary kitchen knife.

[lebe03]

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those children and teachers who lost their lives in such a senseless way.

Incidents like this will always prompt debate but sadly I suspect nothing will be done to prevent it from happening again. If the individual didn't have access to a gun I believe they would've found another way of doing what they did. It's the mind set of the individual that would need to be changed prior to such atrocities rather than their access to the preferred 'tool'.

[BlueWolf]

My thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of those children and teachers who lost their lives in such a senseless way.

Incidents like this will always prompt debate but sadly I suspect nothing will be done to prevent it from happening again. If the individual didn't have access to a gun I believe they would've found another way of doing what they did. It's the mind set of the individual that would need to be changed prior to such atrocities rather than their access to the preferred 'tool'.

I agree that it's the person that needs help, not the weapon. But despite that I always see this argument coming up a lot. And I really wonder, what would that other thing be then? Unless you're a good knife thrower or anything, I don't know of any weapon that's A) easy get your hands on as a gun in the US and is able to create so many innocent victims in a short time.

[Paranormal Wolf]

I agree that it's the person that needs help, not the weapon. But despite that I always see this argument coming up a lot. And I really wonder, what would that other thing be then? Unless you're a good knife thrower or anything, I don't know of any weapon that's A) easy get your hands on as a gun in the US and is able to create so many innocent victims in a short time.

Explosives, home made bombs Sadly many people know how or could easily find out how to make these and I shudder at the thought of the death toll

[Sparks]

Explosives, home made bombs Sadly many people know how or could easily find out how to make these and I shudder at the thought of the death toll

It's alot harder to kill with a bomb than it is a gun... Someone could go out right now buy a gun and kill alot of people, you can't go out and just buy a bomb, you have to plans weeks in advance, this leaves a big possibility of getting caught beforehand.... If the police do their job properly

It's probably too late to police guns in the USA now, but they need to do something

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[Removed #1]

At this juncture in time there's some speculation that the shooter had Aspergers which is a form of high functioning Autism usually punctuated by an inability to understand basic social generalizations. It's very easy for these individuals to become obsessed in an all encompassing sort of way that most of us can't understand. For example, had a client years and years ago who did indeed have Asperger's and developed an obsession with video games. This obsession became so large and encompassing that he ended up in residential treatment because he refused to stop playing even to go to the bathroom (yes he would literally defecate on himself rather than taking an extra couple of minutes to step away and go to the bathroom). The "professionals" are presently stating that individuals with Asperger's aren't violent, but this isn't my experience in ten years of working in the mental health care field. Not all individuals with Asperger's are violent, but having Asperger's doesn't preclude someone from a capacity for violence. You take an individual with an inability to empathize with others, or pick up on basic social generalizations and surround them for their whole lives with people who likely don't understand the severity involved and you end up with a lot of frustration and because of ones inability to communicate correctly, the solutions to ones negative feelings can be very eye for an eye in scope.

As for guns in general, majority of these incidents happen in "gun free" zones that we have set up here. The trouble with that is that people who are going to do horrific things like this aren't really going to stop and say..."I can't do this horrible thing here, guns aren't allowed." At that point in time they're beyond logic or caring about the lives of others.

This is a horrible tragedy. There was another incident in China as well where a man wielding a knife killed several children. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families affected by this, as there isn't really anything beyond that that I personally can do to ease the suffering involved in the loss of a child. It's something I really hope that I don't have to ever experience myself.

[Marc]

Explosives, home made bombs Sadly many people know how or could easily find out how to make these and I shudder at the thought of the death toll

Bad arguement however. The difference is you cannot just go grab a bomb from somewhere and set it off. It would take planning and knowledge. It doesnt take very much knowledge to fire a gun.

Also if you walked into a school to set up a bomb, and you are confronted by teachers as this guy was, then we would likely become violent etc yes and without a gun may carry a knife or someone and kill 1 or 2 people. The difference is that a gun is so easy to kill many many people. At the end of the day this is what a gun is for, regardless of what other uses they are used for these days. They are there with the sole purpose of killing.

Also there is a lot of talk about it being too late, things already circulating etc etc. Why? I dont understand why it is too late. For hundreds of years we used to kill women as witches and this was the norm. Everyone used to have black people as slaves and this was the norm. Everything has to start somewhere.

At the end of the day if you remove the ability for people to legally carry a gun then you reduce the guns on the street. If you do nothing, you reduce absolutly nothing. Everything starts somewhere, however at the moment there is nothing that is started.

[MENTION=322]Mazz[/MENTION], you keep your gun in a locked safe therefore whats the point in having one? Unless of course you ever get it out of that safe, and in which case it is not always safe as there will always be someone who can take it from you. This is the danger of guns.

[Marc]

This is a horrible tragedy. There was another incident in China as well where a man wielding a knife killed several children. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families affected by this, as there isn't really anything beyond that that I personally can do to ease the suffering involved in the loss of a child. It's something I really hope that I don't have to ever experience myself.

Just to point out with this. With a knife you have a chance. Maybe only a small chance with something like that, but its a chance. With a gun you have no chance. Also this happened before in 2010 in china. The difference being thats when they have to go back to for a similar event to show on the news, unlike the gun problems in the US where there have been 3 in the last 12 month alone.

[Removed #1]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248765/Sandy-Hook-shooting-Christmas-trees-donated-memorial-Newtown-victims.html

Here's an updated article

[LittleLuka]

Just found this interesting... Maybe now some can realize why many are so passionate about not changing gun laws:

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.

• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.

• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.

• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.

• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.

• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.

• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.

• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

[Sparks]

Just found this interesting... Maybe now some can realize why many are so passionate about not changing gun laws:

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck.

• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun.

• A 2002 terrorist attack at an Israeli school was quickly stopped by an armed teacher and a school guard.

• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter.

• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened.

• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns.

• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun.

• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon.

I dont think some of these are good examples to be honest...

I wouldn't let my child go to a school/college where students were carrying guns, and why would a teacher need to carry a gun!

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[BlueWolf]

Something's not quite right when people feel the need to carry guns in order to protect themselves from other people also carrying guns...

[Sparks]

Just saw this on the news...

How many gun deaths per 100,000 people per country:

Wales and England 0.1

Canada 1.2

USA 3.1

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[Mazz]

This is a topic that has gone on forever. It's one that has been ongoing in the US since I was a kid, following the assassination of President Kennedy in November, 1963. And it continues to this day. I can only hope that the events of last Friday, will bring some catalysitic affect to the process and that finally, we as a country will realize that life is precious and not disposable. The culture in each country may be different from other countries, but the common thread throughout is that we are all human. At least I hope we are.

[Elyse]

EDIT: Er...wrong thread. That was odd.

[Rosemary]

I read a while back that South Africa is only second to Columbia when it comes to death by firearms, some years we are 1st on the list. If I remember correctly our murder by firearm rate is 50% higher than that of the USA.

I apologise for using the USA as an example, but it just shows how extreme the danger in my country

[Elyse]

More info on the investigation, has new info: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/police-caution-it-could-be-months-before-shooting-details-revealed-1.1081970

In any case, I don't believe people should have the right to own assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, etc. Those guns, to me, should be considered military-only weapons. (Except in the case of hunting animals with a scoped gun or a shotgun, etc)

EDIT: A list on the firearm homicide rates/ownerships/etc for all countries:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Oh, and another link...interesting article about gun control, how the USA attitude is like about gun control, and etc:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

Edited December 17, 2012 by SolitaryHowl

[LittleLuka]

More info on the investigation, has new info: http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/police-caution-it-could-be-months-before-shooting-details-revealed-1.1081970

In any case, I don't believe people should have the right to own assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles, etc. Those guns, to me, should be considered military-only weapons. (Except in the case of hunting animals with a scoped gun or a shotgun, etc)

EDIT: A list on the firearm homicide rates/ownerships/etc for all countries:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

Oh, and another link...interesting article about gun control, how the USA attitude is like about gun control, and etc:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/16/f-rfa-macdonald-guns.html

the majority of people who own rifles or shotguns do use them for hunting?

no offense, but i don't think you have the right to tell me i can't protect my home. i agree that it should be more difficult to obtain a weapon but you don't know the crime rate i live around. All of the criminals here don't obtain guns illegally so whether or not they were legal wouldn't affect them whatsoever. i also think everyone needs to step back and realize that every country IS DIFFERENT. what may work for you, may not work for me. All i can tell you is while i do not own a concealed weapons permit and carry a gun around i don't judge people who do. i do however have a glock in my night stand and if you enter my home with the intent to harm me i would not hesitate to pull the trigger.

human life is important to me just like everyone else, and i think what happened Friday is HORRIBLE. so horrible that words can even begin to describe it but i believe even if laws were different it would still have happened somehow. there will ALWAYS be nut jobs out there that want to harm innocent children.

i think the answer is making it more challenging to obtain a gun as opposed to just a background check EXP. semi-automatic rifles. Also, having a uniformed officer in EVERY school along with metal detectors, harsh i know but i don't see any other way.

many of you may not understand the type of chaos that would ensue if guns were outlawed, the citizens of my country would start riots or some other method of craziness.