'Many die' in US school shooting

[LittleLuka]

I agree things need to change. I just don't know how. I said it before, but a lot of the kids that shoot schools are bullied. That's how they get their revenge. That was the story at Columbine. As a culture, we have to look at how we treat each other. People just don't care about others any more. Guns have been in the US since the country was founded. 60 yrs ago people took them to school, then went hunting afterwards, and no one thought anything of it.

We have to stop treating each other like shit. It has to be done at home, by parents. It has to be a culture thing. Unfortuntely, government can't legislate that.

couldn't have said it better.

not to mention we need to LOOK FOR THE SIGNS of people with mental issues. Everytime we go back and look at an offender it all comes together like a puzzle.

[Jay]

People always say more restrictive gun laws. How so? What needs to be changed?

I agree things need to change. I just don't know how. I said it before, but a lot of the kids that shoot schools are bullied. That's how they get their revenge. That was the story at Columbine. As a culture, we have to look at how we treat each other. People just don't care about others any more. Guns have been in the US since the country was founded. 60 yrs ago people took them to school, then went hunting afterwards, and no one thought anything of it.

We have to stop treating each other like shit. It has to be done at home, by parents. It has to be a culture thing. Unfortuntely, government can't legislate that.

Well, first I will describe what I mean by restrictive.

First, there needs to be a more intensive background check if you want to own a gun, no matter where you live. The laws vary so much by state that you can walk in a buy a gun in one state, when in another state you have to wait 14 days. I think it needs to be more uniform.

Also, the background check needs to be more intensive. Just running a criminal check is not going to do much, most of the people responsible never had a criminal record. What exactly do they need to look for? That I don’t know.

There also needs to be bans on certain types of guns. Anything that can fire off hundreds of rounds is completely unnecessary for anyone to have, except military.

Second, your right, a lot of kids at school get bullied, and people do treat each other like shit, and you can’t regulate that. But I don’t think that the people responsible for Columbine did what they did just because they were bullied. Something has to be wrong with your head if you are capable of killing people like that. It goes back to what I said about mental health. There had to be some signs that those people were mentally unstable, but they fall through the cracks. That is something the government CAN do in regards to mental health care, but we, as citizens need to realize the warning signs.

Do I think that banning guns will prevent this from happening again? Absolutely not. It will take more than just laws, it takes people to change.

[ponder85]

Well, first I will describe what I mean by restrictive.

First, there needs to be a more intensive background check if you want to own a gun, no matter where you live. The laws vary so much by state that you can walk in a buy a gun in one state, when in another state you have to wait 14 days. I think it needs to be more uniform.

Also, the background check needs to be more intensive. Just running a criminal check is not going to do much, most of the people responsible never had a criminal record. What exactly do they need to look for? That I don’t know.

There also needs to be bans on certain types of guns. Anything that can fire off hundreds of rounds is completely unnecessary for anyone to have, except military.

Second, your right, a lot of kids at school get bullied, and people do treat each other like shit, and you can’t regulate that. But I don’t think that the people responsible for Columbine did what they did just because they were bullied. Something has to be wrong with your head if you are capable of killing people like that. It goes back to what I said about mental health. There had to be some signs that those people were mentally unstable, but they fall through the cracks. That is something the government CAN do in regards to mental health care, but we, as citizens need to realize the warning signs.

Do I think that banning guns will prevent this from happening again? Absolutely not. It will take more than just laws, it takes people to change.

Yes, we do have to change.

In addition to checking to see if a person has committed a crime, what else should the background check include?

I wouldn't be that much opposed to a 14 day waiting period, but I don't know what it helps. If anything, in my opinion, its a problem for the recently split up woman who is getting threats from her ex.

To answer your question about what they look for, I believe they check your name against a federal list of those who should not own guns.

[Removed #1]

I was going to stay out of this thread, ask [MENTION=1]Marc[/MENTION] but it just keeps on going, and rather than focusing on the lifes lost it seems to have deteriorated into gun control talk. So here's my two cents...

While it's appreciated that those of you on the other side of the pond have an opinion on what the US should do in regards to gun control, ultimately, ummm yeah don't care so much what you have to say (sorry if this is harsh). What's been proposed from our European counterparts has been more regulation...here's the thing...our cities and states with the most restrictive gun laws also are the ones leading the way in gun ownership regulation. So, in reality hearing "you need more regulations" eh isn't going to cut it for most of America, because our worst gun voilence is where we have the most regulation surrounding guns. Chicago has had more civilians killed this year than we've had soldiers killed in afgahnistan this year.

Ban assault rifles is the solution...no...not really...in Connecticut you can't have a magazine carrying more than I think it's 19 rounds. In this incident that means with multiple victims being shot more than 10 times that the gunman reloaded more than once...and in reports availible on the US side, he did in fact have hundreds of rounds of ammo on him.

Individuals who are hellbent on murder are NOT going to be deterred by stricter regulations. Here all that means is that you're limiting the weapons that police have access to. I think we as a nation really need to look at a couple of things: 1-over a billion dollars cut from the department of education for providing security for schools over the last four years. 2-majori8ty of these incidents occur in "no gun zones" at this point in time, no gun zones means: no one will be able to shoot back at these places.

The argument is there for "how often does the lone off duty blah blah blah impact anything?" I can't tell you for sure...I can tell you that it did happen this weekend in Texas.

Over the weekend the US had 3 shootings in the public arena that I'm aware of...I really don't understand why we're not talking more about what schools and communities can do to protect themselves from this sort of violence at this point. No Gun zones are working out so well for our nation...the obvious solution is to regulate things to where legal gun ownership is the same set of hurdles it is in Chicago, or LA then things like this won't happen...except in this instance the gunman actually tried to obtain his own weapons...and through the system was denied. So his next step was to murder his mother and steal hers....

...how can you expect an individual willing to kill their own mother to be willing to abide by "Gun Free zones"?

[Elyse]

I apologize i misunderstood. I can concur that no one "needs" an assault weapon. My boyfriend is purchasing a semi-automatic after Christmas. Do i think it's stupid? honestly, yes. He doesn't need one, he will never use it, and i personally think it's a waste of money. However, it's not my decision, it's his. He's not breaking any laws and i know he's not a psycho and won't abuse the privilege of owning it. Yes, it shouldn't be as simple as snapping your fingers, having a background check ran, and ta da you have a new rifle. I am all for tightening up who is allowed to own one.

I don't feel like the right to owning a gun and the right to protect my property are so far apart. How else would i be able to protect myself? As a woman of only 5'2 I don't see me being able to defend myself against an average sized male. Just to put it in to perspective for you 147 people were murdered in the city of Memphis, TN last year. Gang crime here is HIGH as where people are afraid during initiation week because innocent people can be targeted. While you may feel safer without guns, I feel safer with them.

We may have a liberal president currently, but the USA is still very much conservative to an extent. Exp. in the lower region. Not to mention i don't really think it's fair for anyone that isn't a citizen of my country to tell me what's best for our country. I'm not a fan of universal healthcare but i wouldn't dare go tell Canada that it should be changed. You say you understand the difference but yet it seems like you still are passing judgement? I'm not trying to be rude or offensive by any means, just simply asking.

Just my thoughts....

I've never lived in a city with any gang related violence, so I wouldn't know how to defend myself if I lived in a city like that...besides getting the heck out of the city however I can!

Personally, and I say this with respect, I think its important to listen to others who aren't in the same country as you are. It gives you a different perspective on things. It lets others tell you what you may not see yourself, because you may be 'blinded' by fear, emotions, or your culture.

And, for the record, I agree...our healthcare system kinda sucks. Sure, its free...which is awesome, but there's a lot that can be improved on as far as the quality of service goes. But overall I'm very happy with it - I would probably have ended up killing myself if I didn't have the mental support my (free) psychologist provides.

This is the exact problem. A lot of people don't know much about guns, or gun crime statistics, including our politicians. However, they feel the need to start making new laws about them.

How would you propose regulation?

I have a few ideas...

1. Restrict gun shows, since I know it wouldn't be possible to completely ban them, given your culture.

- Don't allow the sale of guns at gun shows, since I heard on National Geographic (?) that's where a lot of gun purchases take place, since they don't have to do background checks there?

2. Perform a background check on not only yourself's criminal record, but your mental history.

- Not just official medical documents, but family accounts on your mental history and state. Like the fact you have a very short temper and you tend to be a violent person may not be on medical records, but your family knows about it.

- Make it legally binding so your family is held accountable if they withhold the truth. If you have shown repeated accounts of mental instability (too violent or etc), then you wouldn't be allowed to have a gun.

3. Improved support for mental health. (I think this is the MOST important.)

- I have a few American friends with minor mental problems. They don't go to the psychologist because it costs too much for them, so as a result they are struggling throughout their lives.

- So, an alternative: Make that part of healthcare FREE to anybody who can't afford it. So that people with minor or major mental problems can be looked after and medicated, since the majority of these cases involve people with mental problems.

- I know some of you may see this as too liberal...but would you rather have mentally unstable people shooting at innocents, or would you rather their mental problem be kept in check by medications and by regular visits to a psychologist?

- People who are deemed a danger to society should have mandatory psychologist health checks, should be medicated appropriately, and should never be allowed to own ANY gun. If they are concerned for their safety due to violence in their area, they should be moved by the state/government to a safer area.

4. Make the gun laws federal, not a state thing. Gun laws should be the same throughout all the states - so one can't just buy a gun in a state where it would be easier to get it.

5. For parents who have children with major mental issues, they should have their guns under a lock and key that is easily accessible by the parents (if the need to defend arises) but their children should not have access to them. If that was the case here, this horrible tragedy could have been avoided since as I understand it...the guns belonged to the mother?

6. Restrict what kind of weapons the average person can bring with them OUTSIDE their home. If you want to have a million assault weapons in your house to defend it, that's fine, but as long as they don't go outside your door and pose a danger to the general public, then they're fine in my book. Carrying a pistol should be enough for personal defense outside your home, and in all honesty, if you need more than that...you might want to think seriously about moving to another city...

1 on 1, do you think you have much of a chance either way?

Yes, there are ways you can defend yourself against a knife. Against any gun, unless you have a gun on your person, you're kinda screwed.

People always say more restrictive gun laws. How so? What needs to be changed?

I agree things need to change. I just don't know how. I said it before, but a lot of the kids that shoot schools are bullied. That's how they get their revenge. That was the story at Columbine. As a culture, we have to look at how we treat each other. People just don't care about others any more. Guns have been in the US since the country was founded. 60 yrs ago people took them to school, then went hunting afterwards, and no one thought anything of it.

We have to stop treating each other like shit. It has to be done at home, by parents. It has to be a culture thing. Unfortuntely, government can't legislate that.

As a side note, I've been horribly bullied in school. I was treated like shit. But I had a great support group - my family, friends, and my psychologist. I didn't feel the need to go out and mass murder people, even those that bullied me. It might have to do with my personally (not a violent person), or maybe its a cultural thing.

I think ALL people should be educated on how to raise, treat, and talk to your kid when problems like bullying and stuff arises. 'Classes' like this should be mandatory if you have or are planning to have a kid. Bullying impacts your whole mental state - it doesn't just end when highschool does.

America, as a whole I think, is a violent nation to begin with. There's too many big cities and too many people crammed into them. Because of the gang violence with guns, you feel the need to protect yourself with guns. Fight fire with fire. I understand that. Like I said, above, I think the most important step to preventing future massacres like this one is to improve the mental state of the country...but whatever means you have to. If that means the average person has to pay an extra 5% in taxes every year to support a 'free-mental-health system', I think its worth it.

And I have to agree, its a sticky situation when you're in a gun-saturated culture to try to impose restrictions on owning weapons. Because the criminals won't care.

Edited December 17, 2012 by SolitaryHowl

[Sparks]

1 on 1, do you think you have much of a chance either way?

Yes I do, if you are aware of someone coming at you with a knife you have better chance of defending yourself that if someone shoots you from across the road

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Xparent Cyan Tapatalk 2

[Rosemary]

I think non-Americans are so quick to judge, as seen in this thread. Living in one of the most violent countries in the world makes me smile at some of the suggestions given for change. Forgive me for saying this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Pulling info off the internet and using it as the gospel truth has no bearing on real life.

Americans have been wrestling with this problem for years, the solution will come from within, without snide or judgmental comments from the rest of us.

Give them space and time to deal with this tragedy, do not for one minute think they shrug tragedies like this off and then move forward, it leaves a profound mark on their souls.

Just one last thing - I am on the forum every day, and have noticed that the American members are the most non-judgemental of us all. Let us do the same.

[ponder85]

I think non-Americans are so quick to judge, as seen in this thread. Living in one of the most violent countries in the world makes me smile at some of the suggestions given for change. Forgive me for saying this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Pulling info off the internet and using it as the gospel truth has no bearing on real life.

Americans have been wrestling with this problem for years, the solution will come from within, without snide or judgmental comments from the rest of us.

Give them space and time to deal with this tragedy, do not for one minute think they shrug tragedies like this off and then move forward, it leaves a profound mark on their souls.

Just one last thing - I am on the forum every day, and have noticed that the American members are the most non-judgemental of us all. Let us do the same.

Thank you. A lot of the comments on here are from people who just don't know much about how our system works. Even most of the suggestions about how to fix things are things that were already in place, or just flat our aren't practical. For example, people with any history of mental illness cannot buy guns now. The NICS background check system is already a national system. Buying a gun at a show from a vendor requires the same check buying a gun from any dealer does. Buying a gun from a regular person at a show doesn't require a check, just like if I bought a gun from my neighbor. The federal government, IMO, doesn't need to be meddling in more affairs between citizens.

I'm an avid shooter. To me, this discussion would be like someone who knows absolutely nothing about huskies, advocating for outlawing them because they look like wolves and therefore they must be dangerous. Someone that had never been around a husky, or cared to do a damn bit of research, but still arguing how it shouldn't be legal to own them.

I let it alone for a few days, but like most of you probably would,if someone was attacking our dogs without knowing much at them, you'd eventually start trying to educate people.

[Elyse]

I've learned a lot about guns laws in the U.S.A since joining in on this conversation, so thank you to everyone who enlightened me.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did, I'm sorry. Right now times are really tough for me (personal stuff), and I tend to become...well...a judgmental b*tch.

I guess its hard for us to know what's going on in areas that have a lot of gang violence/gun related crime because we aren't there to experience it for ourselves. Personally, I was trying to make suggestions because I care about the U.S of A and its people...just trying to help you guys out. So, again, sorry if any took offense...

EDIT: Anyways, here's a link which lists a whole bunch of relevant stories regarding this terrible tragedy: http://www.ctvnews.ca/connecticut-shooting

Edited December 18, 2012 by SolitaryHowl

[Rosemary]

Right now times are really tough for me (personal stuff), and I tend to become...well...a judgmental b*tch. ...

I am truly sorry you are going through a tough time at the moment my friend, I hope things improve for you soon

We are all learning new things all the time, which is good.

SA is heading for a huge political crash which is going to have a devastating effect on us all. When the time comes, there will be a lot of misinformation out there, and an awful lot of criticism, but I hope the people on this forum will look deeper than what is printed in the sensation driven media or the statistics so often thrown about - statistics are good, but they do not show the full picture

[pacific4130]

I think non-Americans are so quick to judge, as seen in this thread. Living in one of the most violent countries in the world makes me smile at some of the suggestions given for change. Forgive me for saying this, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Pulling info off the internet and using it as the gospel truth has no bearing on real life.

Americans have been wrestling with this problem for years, the solution will come from within, without snide or judgmental comments from the rest of us.

Give them space and time to deal with this tragedy, do not for one minute think they shrug tragedies like this off and then move forward, it leaves a profound mark on their souls.

Just one last thing - I am on the forum every day, and have noticed that the American members are the most non-judgemental of us all. Let us do the same.

Very good post Rosemary.

I too am quite saddened to see the fervour with which the UK press seem to launch into a huge tirade against the US and its gun laws whilst conveniently glossing over the UKs own faults and failings. They just seem to pander to two types of people: those who just generally want to mouth off about the US, and public grief junkies who want to tell the internet just how much more upset about the latest tragedy they are than everyone else.

In the UK we still, despite very strict gun laws, experience some of these random 'person gone nuts' killings. Derrick Bird: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings) for example. People often use the 'a knife can't kill like a gun' argument - just look at Dunblane: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre (also had handguns). Recently, and close to me, there was a spate of grenade attacks in gang related violence - ended up killing two female police constables: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_of_Nicola_Hughes_and_Fiona_Bone

And then there's nutcases like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7

Unfortunately, we just can't legislate against people going crazy and being hell bent on causing death and destruction. We just have to do our best to reduce the chance of it occurring.

I think there's enough problems in the UK for us Brits to concern ourselves with before we try to tell people in the US how to run their own country.

[Marc]

The UK press launches into a tirade against just about every damned thing on the planet including anything that goes even slightly wrong in our own country. You have stated 3 mass killings in the UK there, and I am not saying there are not any. However you did miss one very important fact.

1996 - Dunblane - Actually not a dissimilar situation to the sad occurance recently in the US. 16 Children and 1 Adult. However what you missed which is highly relevant is this tragedy it was also legal here to personally own a handgun in the UK. This action actually directly resulted in law which bans the personal ownership of handguns in the UK. As a result there was not a mass killing of anyone with a gun in the UK for 14 Years when Derrick Bird killed 12 in cumbria. Criminals actually find it extremely difficult to obtain a gun in the UK these days, to the extent that the majority are of low quality due to being converted replicas.

Its a statistical fact that allowing guns to be owned privately by individuals increases gun crime. This is not a guess, its a fact. Its the same reason I think Marijuana should be completely legalised here in the UK, as again its a statistical fact that countries in which it is legal to smoke it there are actually less people who do so, not more.

Is anyone aware that it is highly offensive to assume that someone does not have the intelligence to have an informed debate on a subject simply based on them not living within that country. Both the US and the UK until a few years ago were at war in 2 countries, neither of which is there own country. Should we not be there trying to make the world a better place simply because "we dont understand their culture, society etc"? I am entitled to opinion, as is anyone else and this should not be something that is being argued about. It is a conversation, nothing more and nothing less.

Also just to state, to say we have no idea what we are talking about because we do not live in one of the most violent countries in the world is actually a contradiction in itself. We do know what we are talking about specifically for that reason. We are not doing something incorrect in being a safe country to live, we are clearly doing something right.

EDIT: Can I also say that assuming people in the UK are wrong is also judgemental. Its 2 differing opinions in 2 countries that both believe in democracy. There is no need for arguements on these subjects. Discussions get people everywhere, arguements bring people to a standstill no matter where they are.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Marc

[Jay]

I've learned a lot about guns laws in the U.S.A since joining in on this conversation, so thank you to everyone who enlightened me.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, and if I did, I'm sorry. Right now times are really tough for me (personal stuff), and I tend to become...well...a judgmental b*tch.

I guess its hard for us to know what's going on in areas that have a lot of gang violence/gun related crime because we aren't there to experience it for ourselves. Personally, I was trying to make suggestions because I care about the U.S of A and its people...just trying to help you guys out. So, again, sorry if any took offense...

EDIT: Anyways, here's a link which lists a whole bunch of relevant stories regarding this terrible tragedy: http://www.ctvnews.ca/connecticut-shooting

I for one wasn't offended in the least bit. I'm with you that things here need to change and I have no idea how it can. Every country or state has its own faults and problems. I just know that the US had one of the most lax gun laws and seems to have much more gun violence than other countries so it is logical to think they are tied.

[Rosemary]

[MENTION=1]Marc[/MENTION], I read your post and walked away to think about what you said, came back to start a reply and struggled to say what I mean, as I find it extremely difficult to put it into words.

A discussion will almost always turn into an argument when people on opposite sides of the spectrum are passionate about something - we are human. It is seldom that someone will change their mind about something they feel strongly about based on a discussion, or argument. The best we can hope for is that they take something away from the discussion that they did not know, think of, or realise before.

You are right on a few points, but when I say 'you' do not know what you are talking about - I am not talking about something that has been read, heard or seen on TV. Most of us know what is going on around us – some of us are more informed than others, but it is still information gleaned from other sources.

I am talking about the heart-beat of a country at grassroots level - that is what people don't understand, any information you read or hear is meaningless unless you understand the problem at that level.

Also just to state, to say we have no idea what we are talking about because we do not live in one of the most violent countries in the world is actually a contradiction in itself. We do know what we are talking about specifically for that reason. We are not doing something incorrect in being a safe country to live, we are clearly doing something right.

I disagree strongly that it is a contradiction. What you are talking about is the UK, what I am talking about is Africa - totally different, in so many ways. I agree that you have done something monumentally right - for the UK. You may argue that we need to take the first step towards the eradication as the UK did, but for various reasons, this won’t work, certainly not at this point in time ..... we are far too insecure as a country (politically) and as a people (safety wise), to even think of going that route. What works in one country does not necessarily mean it is a blueprint for the rest of us – it is something we would really, really like to attain, but it is unrealistic, especially when faced with what we face on a daily basis.

People talk about cultural differences as if it is a small thing - but in actual fact it is HUGE, and is a stumbling block when living in a country with 11 official languages and cultures. I have lived here all my life and struggle with it at times trying to understand why things happen the way they do or why people react to certain things the way they do - it is cultural.

SA is a country where the meter change in your car's ashtray is worth more than your life, your cheap cell phone is worth more than your life - life is expendable and belongs to the person who wants something which you have - as simple as that.

Every person here has been affected by crime to a certain degree - I myself have come face to face with it and have been confronted by a very angry man wielding a panga, absolutely terrifying, but I did not go out and buy a gun. Other family members and friends have actually stared down the barrel of a gun (my brother), have been stabbed to death in the street for a wrist watch (my much loved uncle) or beaten and kicked to within an inch of their life (a very good girlfriend), so I can certainly understand why my daughter fought the system for four years to get her licence to own a gun.

The criminals in this country have access to a huge, and seemingly never ending supply of illegal weapons, mostly smuggled in from Russia, Libya and other countries, so take away the legal weapons and we are left defenseless.

I am not sure what the point you made about the USA and UK being involved in two wars has got to do with anything - as that is another story all together.

All I ask is that you not judge us and our countries for the decisions we make – we make them because they are right for us at the time. You may not like them, but they are ours, if they are mistakes, we own them.

I think you all know by now that I am passionate about my country and its people. If not, I am doing something wrong as it has always been my intention to show you all a part of my country you don't usually see.

I have re-read this several times, changed it several times, and it still comes across as disjointed - that is me, but I hope it makes sense to you.

[Marc]

[MENTION=1]Marc[/MENTION], I read your post and walked away to think about what you said, came back to start a reply and struggled to say what I mean, as I find it extremely difficult to put it into words.

A discussion will almost always turn into an argument when people on opposite sides of the spectrum are passionate about something - we are human. It is seldom that someone will change their mind about something they feel strongly about based on a discussion, or argument. The best we can hope for is that they take something away from the discussion that they did not know, think of, or realise before.

You are right on a few points, but when I say 'you' do not know what you are talking about - I am not talking about something that has been read, heard or seen on TV. Most of us know what is going on around us – some of us are more informed than others, but it is still information gleaned from other sources.

I am talking about the heart-beat of a country at grassroots level - that is what people don't understand, any information you read or hear is meaningless unless you understand the problem at that level.

I disagree strongly that it is a contradiction. What you are talking about is the UK, what I am talking about is Africa - totally different, in so many ways. I agree that you have done something monumentally right - for the UK. You may argue that we need to take the first step towards the eradication as the UK did, but for various reasons, this won’t work, certainly not at this point in time ..... we are far too insecure as a country (politically) and as a people (safety wise), to even think of going that route. What works in one country does not necessarily mean it is a blueprint for the rest of us – it is something we would really, really like to attain, but it is unrealistic, especially when faced with what we face on a daily basis.

People talk about cultural differences as if it is a small thing - but in actual fact it is HUGE, and is a stumbling block when living in a country with 11 official languages and cultures. I have lived here all my life and struggle with it at times trying to understand why things happen the way they do or why people react to certain things the way they do - it is cultural.

SA is a country where the meter change in your car's ashtray is worth more than your life, your cheap cell phone is worth more than your life - life is expendable and belongs to the person who wants something which you have - as simple as that.

Every person here has been affected by crime to a certain degree - I myself have come face to face with it and have been confronted by a very angry man wielding a panga, absolutely terrifying, but I did not go out and buy a gun. Other family members and friends have actually stared down the barrel of a gun (my brother), have been stabbed to death in the street for a wrist watch (my much loved uncle) or beaten and kicked to within an inch of their life (a very good girlfriend), so I can certainly understand why my daughter fought the system for four years to get her licence to own a gun.

The criminals in this country have access to a huge, and seemingly never ending supply of illegal weapons, mostly smuggled in from Russia, Libya and other countries, so take away the legal weapons and we are left defenseless.

I am not sure what the point you made about the USA and UK being involved in two wars has got to do with anything - as that is another story all together.

All I ask is that you not judge us and our countries for the decisions we make – we make them because they are right for us at the time. You may not like them, but they are ours, if they are mistakes, we own them.

I think you all know by now that I am passionate about my country and its people. If not, I am doing something wrong as it has always been my intention to show you all a part of my country you don't usually see.

I have re-read this several times, changed it several times, and it still comes across as disjointed - that is me, but I hope it makes sense to you.

The point i was trying to make overall was that we are not judging any country, its simply a discussion and one person may not agree with another.

The reason for the war part was to point out that when people say they should not point out potential issuus in another country when both those countries are doing exactly that is hypocrytical.

Anyway. No point in anything ever changing as the world will end on 21st lol

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[Elyse]

Anyway. No point in anything ever changing as the world will end on 21st lol

Only 2 more days!

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

Only 2 more days!

load of rubbish

[Elyse]

load of rubbish

LOL, I know...I like making fun of it.

[LittleLuka]

i don't mean to state that i don't take people from other countries opinion seriously. I do.

You just have to understand that at the same time it's hard when that person hasn't been in your shoes and doesn't know the type of environment you live in. I'm not being argumentative when i say we don't have the same culture. We don't, Just like we don't speak the same, or eat the same, etc.

I'm fully aware that my country has it's load of issues, which is exactly why i don't tell other countries how i think they should change their government. It's not my place. I do agree that it's always smart to take other people's perspectives on things, exp. when they are an uninvolved party. But i'm sorry to say at the end of they day you don't know how i live, where i live, and the type of people that surround me. Therefore, it makes it hard for you to pass judgement or in any matter for me to even want to listen.

I apologize if i came across trying to argue, I at no point was upset, just speaking passionately about this country i call home.

[Mark-Akasha-Kenzo]

my thoughts are with all the families involved in this terrible situation... my this never happen again....

i have family in the states and i do believe in the right to bear arms... read this article. ‎

"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two means to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you must either convince me by reason or force me to do your bidding under threat of harm. Every human interaction, without exception, falls into one of these two categories. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people would exclusively interact through reason as force has no place as valid social interaction. But the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as that may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a means to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a lone guy on equal footing with a carload of drunken guys with baseball bats. The gun removes all disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun also to be the source of "bad force." These people think we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because they believe a firearm only makes it easier for an armed mugger to do his job. That, of course, is true only if the mugger's potential victims are disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat. The argument has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of firearms are asking only for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can make a successful living only in a society where the state has granted him a monopoly of force.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would result only in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party that inflicts overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones do not constitute lethal force, watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced by another, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

It removes force from the social equation... and that's why carrying a gun is both a civilized and a civilizing act.

So, the most civil societies are those where all citizens are equally armed and can be persuaded only through reason, never by force.