Backyard Breeding

[Chula]

Just a question, not looking to start a debate, just hoping for some insight.

 

I understand that backyard breeding is a bad thing because obviously there are a million puppies in shelters who need homes - but why is it any worse than other types of breeding? I keep hearing about "bad breeding", but can someone help me understand the problem? I would never breed Chula, and she'll be spayed as soon as the vet says she's ready, but I'd like to understand better why there is so much concern about breeding dogs who might have a genetic disposition to some kind of health problem that they may develop later in life. I mean, we let people with a history of heart disease, cancer, or diabetes mate, so why is it worse in dogs?

 

I'd like to understand so that if/when we decide to get Chula a mate, I am not inadvertently doing something harmful.

 

 

[DuramaxDiesel]

Many times, backyard breeders aren't breeding to better the breed, they are breeding for profit. They often times don't care about the well-being of puppies and don't have contracts. They will sell to anyone just to make a dollar. My cousin is a backyard breeder of Huskies, he started a couple years ago. He claims he "Sells puppies like hotcakes". To me, that is the wrong frame of mind when it comes to a breeding program.  Reputable breeders go through the hassle of getting their dogs screened against certain health issues to keep it out of their lineage. They are breeding according to the breed standards, not the market.

[Jay]

I agree with that statement.  When I think of backyard breeders I picture a smaller scale puppy mill.  A breeder should be breeding for quality, not quantity.  Sadly I have reason to believe that Yukon came from a backyard breeder.  I should have visited it before making a deposit, but she was 5 hours away, and seemed very nice and she seemed like she loved her dogs very much, but she had over 30 dogs on her property and has at least 3 litters for sale at one time.  If I had to do over again I would have spent more money and got one from a quality breeder that is nearby.  I feel Yukon has a lot of issues that most puppies don't have.

[LittleLuka]

Not only do they only care about the money, they don't care who their puppies end up with. This really directly affects the rate of dogs in shelters because byb allow irresponsible owners to purchase and the dogs wind up in shelters.

[Elyse]

I agree with all the above except I want to add a few things...

 

Genetic health conditions don't always come up later in life. For example, HD (hip dysplasia) can occur in puppies as young as 6 months old if their parents were poorly bred (ie: by a backyard breeder). They suffer throughout their whole lives and have to be PTS way earlier than the average age. Puppies can be born blind or with juvenile cataracts due to poor breeding, and thus go blind at an early age.

 

I believe my boy, Suka, came from a BYB because of his huge size (he was a rescue). He has numerous health problems such as a lot of joint problems (besides arthritis, which was diagnosed when he was only 5), and recurring eye problems and infections. It is possible he will develop HD within the next few years, my vet said.

 

Besides the obvious health problems, temperament problems can be bred into them as well. For example, a dog that was originally bred to be docile and friendly towards people...are bred by BYBs to be vicious killer animals just because there's a market for it. People who were expecting to get a docile dog, would end up getting an aggressive one...that dog would end up at the shelter at be PTS because it is too aggressive to be adopted.

 

Although, on the flip side of the coin, breeds can also be 'damaged' by responsible breeders and showing breeders. Look at what happened to the Sharpei - bred from a smooth normal face to an extremely wrinkly face and unable to breathe properly. There are more examples of this on, I think, either 'Nova' or 'Pedigree Dogs Exposed'. One of the two.

 

More info on why bybs are bad here: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/byb.htm

Edited February 6, 2013 by SolitaryHowl

[Chula]

Interesting. I'm not sure my puppy came from a backyard breeder, but she definitely didn't come from a "real" breeder. He was just a guy who had two huskies that made puppies. He didn't have a bunch of dogs in his yard, but in addition to the mom/dad he had an older rescue lab mix of some kind he was fostering. He said he wasn't expecting the litter, and the mom was going to be spayed, but who knows. He did cry when we took our puppy home though and asked us to keep sending him pictures and bring her back for visits, so at least I feel like he cared about the puppies. His fee was pretty small - $250 I think once all was said and done.

 

We tried to get a rescue awhile ago but they denied us because we don't have a big fenced back yard. They actually told us not to even bother filling out the application. 

[LittleLuka]

Interesting. I'm not sure my puppy came from a backyard breeder, but she definitely didn't come from a "real" breeder. He was just a guy who had two huskies that made puppies. He didn't have a bunch of dogs in his yard, but in addition to the mom/dad he had an older rescue lab mix of some kind he was fostering. He said he wasn't expecting the litter, and the mom was going to be spayed, but who knows. He did cry when we took our puppy home though and asked us to keep sending him pictures and bring her back for visits, so at least I feel like he cared about the puppies. His fee was pretty small - $250 I think once all was said and done.

 

We tried to get a rescue awhile ago but they denied us because we don't have a big fenced back yard. They actually told us not to even bother filling out the application. 

 

sounds like an accidental breeding. i wouldn't condemn the man who seems like he obviously cares about the puppies. he also seems responsible in that he plans on spaying his bitch.

 

As for rescues, you can't really blame them. No offense to you what so ever, i'm sure your puppy is living in a great home but a fence is not an impractical request. Huskies can't be trusted off lead and most rescues know that. That's half the reason some of those dogs are in rescues. They've been trusted and then ran away. When you rescue a dog your worst fear is that it will wind up back in the situation you found it in. I know when i found knox and his sisters i was extremely picky who i let adopt the other two. I had multiple friends message me but i didn't feel they were suitable owners.

All of our local rescues (not just the husky one) require fenced in backyards. It's for the protection of their dogs.

[Chula]

I understand why they have the requirements, but it just means I can't get a rescue dog even if I would prefer one. Even our local SPCA has super stringent requirements for adoption. 

 

The reason we finally got a dog was that my partner's father passed away just over two weeks ago, and he is 2000 miles away from his family. Add to that the fact that we've tried for 7 years to have children and have been unsuccessful. He was really feeling alone, sad and depressed, so I finally acquiesced and we got a puppy. He's been asking for years to get one, but I was always a cat person (he can't have cats because of allergies). I would have preferred to adopt from a shelter, but I felt like it was imperative to do something to make him happy immediately. So far, it has worked! 

[Jay]

 

I have always wondered about rescue organizations and why
they are so strict.  On one hand I can
understand that they care about every animal and want to make sure they go to
the best forever home possible.  On the
other hand, I think some of them are too strict.  Just because someone does not have a fenced
in yard should not mean that they can’t be great pet parents.  I have almost no back yard, it is about 20’ x
20’ and mostly concrete and a little mulch. 
Although it is fenced it, they only get their exercised by running in
the house or on leash for walks.

 

I DO think that they should thoroughly vet someone who is
going to adopt, but they should take each person on a case by case basis.  I am sure some of them would not let me adopt
because I live in a townhome.  I feel it
is one less person out there who would be able to adopt.  There might be a lot less dogs in shelters if
they were more flexible.

[Elyse]

I understand why they have the requirements, but it just means I can't get a rescue dog even if I would prefer one. Even our local SPCA has super stringent requirements for adoption. 

 

The reason we finally got a dog was that my partner's father passed away just over two weeks ago, and he is 2000 miles away from his family. Add to that the fact that we've tried for 7 years to have children and have been unsuccessful. He was really feeling alone, sad and depressed, so I finally acquiesced and we got a puppy. I would have preferred to adopt from a shelter, but I felt like it was imperative to do something to make him happy immediately. So far, it has worked! 

 

I'm sorry to hear that. Is it possible to eventually get a fully fenced in backyard? It would be beneficial to Chula too.

 

The shelter I adopted Suka at didn't have the fence requirement. But we were allowed to adopt him anyway because they saw I did my homework on the breed; I told them he would be put on a tie-out rated for dogs over 100 lbs and that seemed to satisfy them. (Our yard is 3/4 fenced in by our neighbour's fences.). Although they still should have been very skeptical considering they knew he would have been our first dog...or maybe they knew Suka well enough that he wasn't the 'typical husky' and probably wouldn't be a problem?

[LittleLuka]

 

I have always wondered about rescue organizations and why

they are so strict.  On one hand I can

understand that they care about every animal and want to make sure they go to

the best forever home possible.  On the

other hand, I think some of them are too strict.  Just because someone does not have a fenced

in yard should not mean that they can’t be great pet parents.  I have almost no back yard, it is about 20’ x

20’ and mostly concrete and a little mulch. 

Although it is fenced it, they only get their exercised by running in

the house or on leash for walks.

 

I DO think that they should thoroughly vet someone who is

going to adopt, but they should take each person on a case by case basis.  I am sure some of them would not let me adopt

because I live in a townhome.  I feel it

is one less person out there who would be able to adopt.  There might be a lot less dogs in shelters if

they were more flexible.

 

 

most shelters don't even have requirements. it's more rescue groups and yet again they're the ones who have put lots of money, time, and care into these dogs. It's a safety issue and if they make the exception with you than they have to everytime and one of their dogs could easily be injured. I have lots of friends who are involved in rescue and I've had it explained to me.

[LittleLuka]

just to add you  might be a great pet owner but sometimes it helps weed out the bad ones just like the adoption fee does.

[Chula]

We are looking at houses this spring (currently in a townhouse with a backyard situation similar to Jason's). I really do want to have a yard for her, as I think it would provide us ALL a little relief to have a place to put her on a tie out so she could enjoy being outside more. She loves loves loves to just sit in the grass and smell the air, but that's pretty boring for me after awhile. She could literally sit there for hours and be happy as a clam. But some rescues won't even adopt to people who rent, and I'm not in the market to buy any time soon. We need to be mobile and able to move because of his work, and that makes things complicated. Trust me, I do understand why the rescues have their requirements. 

 

I don't feel badly about the man we got Chula from, but I do sometimes worry because of the things I've read about bad breeding and problems with health. So far she seems happy and mostly healthy (except still trying to figure out the food issue!) but I worry that something will happen because she doesn't have breed standard parents or something. 

[HuskyGuerl]

demons not part of a registered family and she is 14 years old and just fine. Bear is not part of a registered family and he is 7 years old and just fine. My fiance parents bred these two and all the puppies had nothing wrong with them they were all just fine. My echo is one of the pups and he is almost 3 years old and acts like a typical husky. Never had anything wrong with him. My cherokee is not registered and from her history(she is a rescue) none of her family was registered. And the people we got her from bred her to an AKC husky and all their puppies were just fine. And cherokee and echo have bred once and that is where my meeka and larka came from and they are very smart and actually have the intelligence to be show dogs but can not because they are not registered. This was not a planned breeding it just happened. When we got cherokee she was in heat and we did not know this and echo got ahold of her through her cage one night when we were sleeping. We DO NOT breed for money we could care less if we got anything out of it and we always make the purchasers fill out a survey about themselves and their homes before we sell them the pup. We also do home visits. My fiance parents DID breed for money and that is why they no longer have demon and bear. My parents have demon and my fiance brother now has bear and they are both fixed.  We are having one more litter out of cherokee which we believe she is pregnant now but this is the last then they are all getting fixed. And we plan to keep some of the pups and my parents are taking the rest. I would never judge my dogs based on back yard breeding. I love animals and will always love my dogs even if they were not purebred or registered(which they are purebred we have documentation and pictures from WAY down the line on both demon and bears side). I do believe that no more puppies need brought into the world based on how many there are that can be rescued. And people that come to us saying we need to breed so they can have a puppy i tell them no because i do not breed for that reason and i give them a list of rescues near and numbers. I keep copies of list in my purse at all times for this reason because my sibes go alot of places with me and people always ask about puppies. We are breeding this time because we love our dogs and their nature so much and the pups turn out in good nature that we want more like them. SO NOT TO START ANYTHING AND EVERY ONE TO HATE ME BECAUSE OF THIS PARAGRAPH> THE LITTER CHEROKEE IS PREGNANT WITH NOW IS NOT BEING SOLD THEY ARE ALL STAYING WITH ME AND MY PARENTS AS HOUSEHOLD PETS JUST LIKE THE REST WE HAVE.

[LittleLuka]

demons not part of a registered family and she is 14 years old and just fine. Bear is not part of a registered family and he is 7 years old and just fine. My fiance parents bred these two and all the puppies had nothing wrong with them they were all just fine. My echo is one of the pups and he is almost 3 years old and acts like a typical husky. Never had anything wrong with him. My cherokee is not registered and from her history(she is a rescue) none of her family was registered. And the people we got her from bred her to an AKC husky and all their puppies were just fine. And cherokee and echo have bred once and that is where my meeka and larka came from and they are very smart and actually have the intelligence to be show dogs but can not because they are not registered. This was not a planned breeding it just happened. When we got cherokee she was in heat and we did not know this and echo got ahold of her through her cage one night when we were sleeping. We DO NOT breed for money we could care less if we got anything out of it and we always make the purchasers fill out a survey about themselves and their homes before we sell them the pup. We also do home visits. My fiance parents DID breed for money and that is why they no longer have demon and bear. My parents have demon and my fiance brother now has bear and they are both fixed.  We are having one more litter out of cherokee which we believe she is pregnant now but this is the last then they are all getting fixed. And we plan to keep some of the pups and my parents are taking the rest. I would never judge my dogs based on back yard breeding. I love animals and will always love my dogs even if they were not purebred or registered(which they are purebred we have documentation and pictures from WAY down the line on both demon and bears side). I do believe that no more puppies need brought into the world based on how many there are that can be rescued. And people that come to us saying we need to breed so they can have a puppy i tell them no because i do not breed for that reason and i give them a list of rescues near and numbers. I keep copies of list in my purse at all times for this reason because my sibes go alot of places with me and people always ask about puppies. We are breeding this time because we love our dogs and their nature so much and the pups turn out in good nature that we want more like them. SO NOT TO START ANYTHING AND EVERY ONE TO HATE ME BECAUSE OF THIS PARAGRAPH> THE LITTER CHEROKEE IS PREGNANT WITH NOW IS NOT BEING SOLD THEY ARE ALL STAYING WITH ME AND MY PARENTS AS HOUSEHOLD PETS JUST LIKE THE REST WE HAVE.

 

nobody hates you lol they just don't have to agree with you. i don't think the point people are trying to make is that we love non-registered pets less than dogs with papers. I have a dog who i have no idea what he is except for sure pitbull but that doesn't make me not love him like Luka. Most of us here just don't agree with breeding EXCEPT for experienced, registered breeders.

[Applebear]

I try to have a understanding for the small hobby breeders who do appear to love their dogs, but I also wonder...how hard could it be to health test a few dogs before letting them reproduce in a all ready crowded world? Most or at least many, puppies, kittens and human babies are born with the deception they are healthy...it's not until they grow up and start to feel/see those health problems. Since humans can not be euthanized for their unethical breeding or overpopulation due to morals of love....there really is not much that can be said, because whether we like to admit it or not...we make ourselves more superior than all other living creatures on this earth....but there's the problem, this does not apply to dogs and cats then. They are and do and will continue to kill them for overpopulating our earth, unlike human overpopulation. THAT is why many are against unethical breeding....there is no need to be killing so many dogs and cats, we CAN prevent this by just spaying our pets and choosing not to breed those who aren't bettering the genetics, health and standard of the breeds. Many dogs and cats are killed for simply being born...isn't that enough?

 

And Huskyg, I'm not sure this obtains to you if you are keeping all your pups...as Luka said, maybe others don't agree with it, but I personally am not directing my words towards you because you are keeping all your pups. I may not understand it completely, but from what I can see...you are taking full responsiblty for every pup and then that makes it your problem and business, not a shelters. 

[Elyse]

I try to have a understanding for the small hobby breeders who do appear to love their dogs, but I also wonder...how hard could it be to health test a few dogs before letting them reproduce in a all ready crowded world? Most or at least many, puppies, kittens and human babies are born with the deception they are healthy...it's not until they grow up and start to feel/see those health problems. Since humans can not be euthanized for their unethical breeding or overpopulation due to morals of love....there really is not much that can be said, because whether we like to admit it or not...we make ourselves more superior than all other living creatures on this earth....but there's the problem, this does not apply to dogs and cats then. They are and do and will continue to kill them for overpopulating our earth, unlike human overpopulation. THAT is why many are against unethical breeding....there is no need to be killing so many dogs and cats, we CAN prevent this by just spaying our pets and choosing not to breed those who aren't bettering the genetics, health and standard of the breeds. Many dogs and cats are killed for simply being born...isn't that enough?

 

And Huskyg, I'm not sure this obtains to you if you are keeping all your pups...as Luka said, maybe others don't agree with it, but I personally am not directing my words towards you because you are keeping all your pups. I may not understand it completely, but from what I can see...you are taking full responsiblty for every pup and then that makes it your problem and business, not a shelters. 

 

That's exactly what I was going to say (about the putting down people for overpopulation) thing...but I didn't know how to say it without being not pc.

 

demons not part of a registered family and she is 14 years old and just fine. Bear is not part of a registered family and he is 7 years old and just fine. My fiance parents bred these two and all the puppies had nothing wrong with them they were all just fine. My echo is one of the pups and he is almost 3 years old and acts like a typical husky. Never had anything wrong with him. My cherokee is not registered and from her history(she is a rescue) none of her family was registered. And the people we got her from bred her to an AKC husky and all their puppies were just fine. And cherokee and echo have bred once and that is where my meeka and larka came from and they are very smart and actually have the intelligence to be show dogs but can not because they are not registered. This was not a planned breeding it just happened. When we got cherokee she was in heat and we did not know this and echo got ahold of her through her cage one night when we were sleeping. We DO NOT breed for money we could care less if we got anything out of it and we always make the purchasers fill out a survey about themselves and their homes before we sell them the pup. We also do home visits. My fiance parents DID breed for money and that is why they no longer have demon and bear. My parents have demon and my fiance brother now has bear and they are both fixed.  We are having one more litter out of cherokee which we believe she is pregnant now but this is the last then they are all getting fixed. And we plan to keep some of the pups and my parents are taking the rest. I would never judge my dogs based on back yard breeding. I love animals and will always love my dogs even if they were not purebred or registered(which they are purebred we have documentation and pictures from WAY down the line on both demon and bears side). I do believe that no more puppies need brought into the world based on how many there are that can be rescued. And people that come to us saying we need to breed so they can have a puppy i tell them no because i do not breed for that reason and i give them a list of rescues near and numbers. I keep copies of list in my purse at all times for this reason because my sibes go alot of places with me and people always ask about puppies. We are breeding this time because we love our dogs and their nature so much and the pups turn out in good nature that we want more like them. SO NOT TO START ANYTHING AND EVERY ONE TO HATE ME BECAUSE OF THIS PARAGRAPH> THE LITTER CHEROKEE IS PREGNANT WITH NOW IS NOT BEING SOLD THEY ARE ALL STAYING WITH ME AND MY PARENTS AS HOUSEHOLD PETS JUST LIKE THE REST WE HAVE.

 

Haha - I don't hate you but I don't agree with what you are doing (like you said: there are too many unwanted dogs in the world - why add to the problem?)...unless all (or the majority) your pups you have created you've kept.

 

Yeah, like Alex said...we're not saying we despise mixed dogs, in fact my Suka is a mix, but we just don't agree with breeding unless it is done professionally, carefully, and only-as-necessary.

 

I try to have a understanding for the small hobby breeders who do appear to love their dogs, but I also wonder...how hard could it be to health test a few dogs before letting them reproduce in a all ready crowded world? Most or at least many, puppies, kittens and human babies are born with the deception they are healthy...it's not until they grow up and start to feel/see those health problems. Since humans can not be euthanized for their unethical breeding or overpopulation due to morals of love....there really is not much that can be said, because whether we like to admit it or not...we make ourselves more superior than all other living creatures on this earth....but there's the problem, this does not apply to dogs and cats then. They are and do and will continue to kill them for overpopulating our earth, unlike human overpopulation. THAT is why many are against unethical breeding....there is no need to be killing so many dogs and cats, we CAN prevent this by just spaying our pets and choosing not to breed those who aren't bettering the genetics, health and standard of the breeds. Many dogs and cats are killed for simply being born...isn't that enough?

 

And Huskyg, I'm not sure this obtains to you if you are keeping all your pups...as Luka said, maybe others don't agree with it, but I personally am not directing my words towards you because you are keeping all your pups. I may not understand it completely, but from what I can see...you are taking full responsiblty for every pup and then that makes it your problem and business, not a shelters. 

 

That's exactly what I was going to say (re: human overpopulation euthanization thing) but I couldn't think of a way to say it without sounding very un pc.

[HuskyGuerl]

LittleLuka thanks I hope I didnt sound to harsh because im not trying to be. Everyone has different view points : ). And as of all my dogs, they are all getting spayed..My current two pups and Echo my male are going next month. And then when cherokee is in the ok to be spayed she will be as well as all of her pups. My parents also have all of theirs spayed. : ) and Applebear there is no threat taken even if it did apply to me everyone has their own views : ) I very much agree with you though

[LittleLuka]

Put it this way, millions of dogs die every year and it breaks my heart that i can't save them all therefore i REFUSE to add to that problem. Luka is neutered and Knox will join him when he turns 6 months. I love Luka and his personality but I won't breed him to have another dog just like him. I'd prefer that after he crosses the rainbow bridge that I rescue a dog that doesn't have a home and doesn't know how it feels to be loved. Nothing is more enjoyable than that feeling. It's just hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of breeding without being a professional right now.

We are seriously in over our heads with the dog population right now.

[LittleLuka]

LittleLuka thanks I hope I didnt sound to harsh because im not trying to be. Everyone has different view points : ). And as of all my dogs, they are all getting spayed..My current two pups and Echo my male are going next month. And then when cherokee is in the ok to be spayed she will be as well as all of her pups. My parents also have all of theirs spayed. : ) and Applebear there is no threat taken even if it did apply to me everyone has their own views : ) I very much agree with you though

 

You weren't. My opinion has just really changed since I found Knox and the condition he was in. I've stated a few times on here I will never purchase another dog.

[Povodny]

I have completely different experiences of obtaining a puppy. First time I got an unregistered dog, Togo. He was vet checked at a week old, I have his weekly weight record, his worming record and at 7 weeks was vet checked again before being let go to his new home. He came with 4 weeks insurance and a starter pack. I was also given a DVD of his birth and weekly updates of him and his litter mates to look back on as a keepsake. I'm still in touch with his breeder.

Second attempt at adding a puppy. Decided to get a registered puppy. Scoured the Internet, got a list of breeders. Narrowed it down to one and contacted them. From the off it was all very cagey. Needless to say it went very wrong. The puppy was under weight, we weren't allowed to see it in its surroundings. The breeders who apparently had a good reputation didn't want to give us an address or home phone number until we picked up the puppy. They gave a ridiculous excuse for us not being able to go and view the kennels. It was so outrageous I came home and got on the phone to Defra an asked them about what I'd been told. They confirmed my suspicion I'd been lied to. So many things felt wrong, I did some digging and and contacted another breeder asking her advice and thought better of going ahead an parting with even more money. We lost our deposit. I've since seen the dodgy breeder advertising her adult dogs on pets4homes. I'm assuming once they've had their quota she was trading up to new dogs an getting rid of the old.

Those are two of my experiences.. First was a BYB. Second a registered KC standard breeder

[Julieanne]

I have completely different experiences of obtaining a puppy. First time I got an unregistered dog, Togo. He was vet checked at a week old, I have his weekly weight record, his worming record and at 7 weeks was vet checked again before being let go to his new home. He came with 4 weeks insurance and a starter pack. I was also given a DVD of his birth and weekly updates of him and his litter mates to look back on as a keepsake. I'm still in touch with his breeder.

Second attempt at adding a puppy. Decided to get a registered puppy. Scoured the Internet, got a list of breeders. Narrowed it down to one and contacted them. From the off it was all very cagey. Needless to say it went very wrong. The puppy was under weight, we weren't allowed to see it in its surroundings. The breeders who apparently had a good reputation didn't want to give us an address or home phone number until we picked up the puppy. They gave a ridiculous excuse for us not being able to go and view the kennels. It was so outrageous I came home and got on the phone to Defra an asked them about what I'd been told. They confirmed my suspicion I'd been lied to. So many things felt wrong, I did some digging and and contacted another breeder asking her advice and thought better of going ahead an parting with even more money. We lost our deposit. I've since seen the dodgy breeder advertising her adult dogs on pets4homes. I'm assuming once they've had their quota she was trading up to new dogs an getting rid of the old.

Those are two of my experiences.. First was a BYB. Second a registered KC standard breeder

I think the KC have a list of reputable breeders (KC assured breeder scheme) and it's likely that the registered breeder isn't on the list. Being registered doesn't mean much unless their on that list. Dogs from puppy mills can be registerd in the US but I'm not too sure about how things are in the UK.

[Povodny]

I think the KC have a list of reputable breeders (KC assured breeder scheme) and it's likely that the registered breeder isn't on the list. Being registered doesn't mean much unless their on that list. Dogs from puppy mills can be registerd in the US but I'm not too sure about how things are in the UK.

No actually that wasn't the case.

[Julieanne]

So they were listed? I hope I didn't offend you at all, it was something that came to mind and I still think it is a good thing to have and look for in a breeder. If there was an incident with any of their respected breeders then I'm sure they would want to look into it.

[Povodny]

So they were listed? I hope I didn't offend you at all, it was something that came to mind and I still think it is a good thing to have and look for in a breeder. If there was an incident with any of their respected breeders then I'm sure they would want to look into it.

Lol not in the least offended I can see your point as I'm sure that frequently happens. We we t back got the KC an tried again. This time with success and ended up with Loki an Safi. Unfortunately Safi was diagnosed with chronic liver failure in 2011 when she was only two an a half yrs old.