Who Watched Gundogs On Crufts Yesterday?

[Keanu]

... What do you think about the judge's decision on Group 1?

IMO this poor lab from Italy was overweight. What is more he made a few errors that often disqualify dogs. And he won the group. I do not quite understand what happened there.

[Povodny]

Yes I thought he was a little chunky, but he had a lovely temperament. Judging is subjective, everyone looks for an likes different aspects, personally I'd go for larger dogs than smaller ones so I wouldn't be a fair judge. What's with that American cocker? It'd get tangled in the undergrowth an you'd have to rescue it lol

[goingsolo]

Loved them all. Especially the woolly coated one .

[Keanu]

I voted for German Wirehaired as have one myself and to be fairly honest I think this is the most underestimated breed out of gundogs. Wirehaired is completely different to GSP which many people do not realise. They are larger, more muscular, their head is more square and they are in general faster. IMO wires are mentally very "husky-like" and I can observe it on daily basis. High energy, extremely affectionate, sort of clowns:) Unlike huskies though they are one man dog and get used to particular person. With this person they can win the world whilst with others maybe completely disobedient.

Anyway, hope one day wires will get appreciated at Crufts. Maybe Cava will be the first one to win LOL

[Keanu]

Yes I thought he was a little chunky, but he had a lovely temperament. Judging is subjective, everyone looks for an likes different aspects, personally I'd go for larger dogs than smaller ones so I wouldn't be a fair judge. What's with that American cocker? It'd get tangled in the undergrowth an you'd have to rescue it lol

I am not sure if this was a temperamental issue or just famous labradorian chaotic disobedience lol he was jumping on his owner several times in the ring. If this is what makes a good show dog, I take Cava straightaway lol

[Storm Angel n Auroras Mum]

he came in reserve!!

[Keanu]

I know, how strange.. You might think they may have different standard in Italy, and apparently Crufts have ambition to be biggest world show:o

[HuskyMom09]

I think the one thing that needs to be remembered is any of us are able to sit back and 'armchair' quarterback the dog show, but none of us actually put our hands on any of the dogs.  Who knows what faults and what points of merit the judge saw and felt.  Show dogs are not supposed to be stone silhouettes and some judges appreciate playful attitudes.  What some may see as 'general disobedience' others may see as a dog that is actually relaxed, having fun, and most importantly showing some sort of personality beyond 'serious show dog'...

[Keanu]

I think the one thing that needs to be remembered is any of us are able to sit back and 'armchair' quarterback the dog show, but none of us actually put our hands on any of the dogs. Who knows what faults and what points of merit the judge saw and felt. Show dogs are not supposed to be stone silhouettes and some judges appreciate playful attitudes. What some may see as 'general disobedience' others may see as a dog that is actually relaxed, having fun, and most importantly showing some sort of personality beyond 'serious show dog'...

True... That is why nearly all my showing friends say that everything depends on a judge and his/her day. Actually, although I had fun there yesterday, I am not sure if I want to get into this world. All of it seems too random and accidental.

[Stormy]

I actually liked seeing a slightly chunkier dog win alot of them look so so so thin 

[Julieanne]

I agree some of them look skinny in comparison to dogs from non-ethical breeders though I think it may be partially due to the extreme breeding practices in some breeds which changes the way their bones/bodies are shaped therefore looking thinner 

I really don't know a lot though, so feel free to override my comment. 

[Stormy]

What do you mean by none ethical breeders?? 

[Julieanne]

Just ones that are breeding for the wrong reasons, I know breeders don't have to show to be ethical though.

Again, I don't know a lot.

Just my suggestion why they might look thinner. 

[Stormy]

My Shadow is from show lines a few champions in his history also but he is not a skinny dog and he isn't built to be either

[Julieanne]

I meant if that's how a certain breed is supposed to look such as Italian Greyhounds.

 

They look skinny but different from Undernourished.

 

 

I find breed traits in show dogs to have a lot more emphasis.

[Stormy]

Ohhh sorry yes im with you now

[HuskyMom09]

True... That is why nearly all my showing friends say that everything depends on a judge and his/her day. Actually, although I had fun there yesterday, I am not sure if I want to get into this world. All of it seems too random and accidental.

 

It does depend a lot on the judge and their interpretation of the breed standard, but it also depends on the dog as well.  I know when I go into the ring on day 1 with Denali he's a different dog than he is on day 3 of the show.  They too have good days and bad days, good showing and bad showing.  But one thing I can say for fact is that Denali does better under breeder judges (judges that actually have first hand experience in the breed) vs. all breed judges (who's expertise may have been Labradors, but today they are judging Siberians).

[LittleLuka]

i like a chunkier labrador.  i don't they look well thin.

[HuskyMom09]

I too like a Labrador with a bit more substance, as long as it's not the typical Lab Flab....muscular and developed is much different than flabby house dog.  The dog also has to be able to carry him/her self appropriately as well.  Chunky and lacking movement is not impressive.

[LittleLuka]

I too like a Labrador with a bit more substance, as long as it's not the typical Lab Flab....muscular and developed is much different than flabby house dog.  The dog also has to be able to carry him/her self appropriately as well.  Chunky and lacking movement is not impressive.

 

agreed completely. when i say chunky i def mean more bulky with muscle. i still like to seem them toned. i also like the blocky head.

[goingsolo]

My Shadow is from show lines a few champions in his history also but he is not a skinny dog and he isn't built to be either

We had a gorgeous cavalier who had champions in her line but bless her she wouldn't have won a thing. We loved her though. X

[Keanu]

I too like a Labrador with a bit more substance, as long as it's not the typical Lab Flab....muscular and developed is much different than flabby house dog.  The dog also has to be able to carry him/her self appropriately as well.  Chunky and lacking movement is not impressive.

Dear HuskyMom, and what about the KC official standards? OK, I understand, different breeders, different perspectives, different days etc. BUT as far as I know, KC has certain clear regulations regarding both physical appearance and character. I am not saying that this lab was overweight in terms of regulations (because of course I don't know that, just guess), but in terms of behaviour he broke certain rules as well. At least I was told, the dog does not (for ex). sit down in the ring or behave chaotically, often inability to control its own emotions (even the most happy) disqualifies the dog. And the owner's handling skills are well under examination as well as the dog itself...

Sorry, I do not really care about this particular lab, I don't know the dog nor the chap, but simply I want to understand what is going on in this world, to be prepared. Just a day before gundogs, C4 made entire programme about dog obesity problems.

I believe it is not so much about our "liking" or current fashion trends, if labrador should be skinny or fat. I believe it is more about answering the question "What makes an ideal retriever, an ideal gun dog"-we must not forget what is this breed designed for. They are suppose to be fast and fit in the field. Just like obese husky would not make a good sled dog..

[HuskyMom09]

Dear HuskyMom, and what about the KC official standards? OK, I understand, different breeders, different perspectives, different days etc. BUT as far as I know, KC has certain clear regulations regarding both physical appearance and character. I am not saying that this lab was overweight in terms of regulations (because of course I don't know that, just guess), but in terms of behaviour he broke certain rules as well. At least I was told, the dog does not (for ex). sit down in the ring or behave chaotically, often inability to control its own emotions (even the most happy) disqualifies the dog. And the owner's handling skills are well under examination as well as the dog itself...

Sorry, I do not really care about this particular lab, I don't know the dog nor the chap, but simply I want to understand what is going on in this world, to be prepared. Just a day before gundogs, C4 made entire programme about dog obesity problems.

I believe it is not so much about our "liking" or current fashion trends, if labrador should be skinny or fat. I believe it is more about answering the question "What makes an ideal retriever, an ideal gun dog"-we must not forget what is this breed designed for. They are suppose to be fast and fit in the field. Just like obese husky would not make a good sled dog..

 

The judge is supposed to know the standard, but as 'rigid' as the standards are each individual being breeder, judge, bystander, owner will have their own interpretation of what that standard means when they read it.  My challenge to anyone that cares to accept it is to read the standard and picture the 'ideal' dog in your mind, I bet you that if 10 people took the same challenge you'd end up with at least 10 different answers for the same breed.

 

If we placed our hands on this lab for example and felt a well muscular body, solid stature, and watched the dog move correctly to our idea of the standard why not put that dog up if that dog is the one that most closely resembles our interpretation of the standard?  To not would be unethical.  But if we felt this same lab and felt anything wrong, out of condition, and the dog didn't move properly to put that dog up would also be without merit.

 

 

As for 'not behaving' or being 'disqualified' the only time that would even be considered is if the dog was too unruly for the judge to examine or god forbid the dog tried to bite the judge.  Then and only then will a dog be excused.  Whoever told you a dog may never sit down in the ring or exhibit any emotion was just pain full of it.  Judges WANT to see personality, expression, not just a miserable dog showing like a statue because that is what it was trained to do.  Part of the dog is the personality, not just the hollow shell.  And when the judge isn't looking (examining) your dog it is more than acceptable to play, allow your dog to sit, let unwind.  If you don't the stress can get to the dog and showing ceases to be fun and the dog no longer will want to go to the shows or even perform well in the ring for you.  Standing in the ring is a mere 10% of the total package.  Movement is the majority of the package.  Any dog can be made to look good standing still, but it takes a correctly built dog to move out right and actually placing our hands on the dog to feel how it's built is the rest.  The only competition where the handler is judged as harshly or even more so is in Juniors, not regular conformation where the dog is the focus as a handler our only job is to present the dog to the best we can to highlight the dog not ourselves.  

 

Here's a pic of a show I was at, I was handling the red on the left...notice we are in the judging ring and our dogs are sitting- the judge is evaluating the gray bitch in the foreground- but you know when it was their turn to show they were happy and relaxed.  If I recall the boy I was handling took best of winners at this show-

[Keanu]

The judge is supposed to know the standard, but as 'rigid' as the standards are each individual being breeder, judge, bystander, owner will have their own interpretation of what that standard means when they read it.  My challenge to anyone that cares to accept it is to read the standard and picture the 'ideal' dog in your mind, I bet you that if 10 people took the same challenge you'd end up with at least 10 different answers for the same breed.

 

If we placed our hands on this lab for example and felt a well muscular body, solid stature, and watched the dog move correctly to our idea of the standard why not put that dog up if that dog is the one that most closely resembles our interpretation of the standard?  To not would be unethical.  But if we felt this same lab and felt anything wrong, out of condition, and the dog didn't move properly to put that dog up would also be without merit.

 

 

As for 'not behaving' or being 'disqualified' the only time that would even be considered is if the dog was too unruly for the judge to examine or god forbid the dog tried to bite the judge.  Then and only then will a dog be excused.  Whoever told you a dog may never sit down in the ring or exhibit any emotion was just pain full of it.  Judges WANT to see personality, expression, not just a miserable dog showing like a statue because that is what it was trained to do.  Part of the dog is the personality, not just the hollow shell.  And when the judge isn't looking (examining) your dog it is more than acceptable to play, allow your dog to sit, let unwind.  If you don't the stress can get to the dog and showing ceases to be fun and the dog no longer will want to go to the shows or even perform well in the ring for you.  Standing in the ring is a mere 10% of the total package.  Movement is the majority of the package.  Any dog can be made to look good standing still, but it takes a correctly built dog to move out right and actually placing our hands on the dog to feel how it's built is the rest.  The only competition where the handler is judged as harshly or even more so is in Juniors, not regular conformation where the dog is the focus as a handler our only job is to present the dog to the best we can to highlight the dog not ourselves.  

 

Here's a pic of a show I was at, I was handling the red on the left...notice we are in the judging ring and our dogs are sitting- the judge is evaluating the gray bitch in the foreground- but you know when it was their turn to show they were happy and relaxed.  If I recall the boy I was handling took best of winners at this show-

Your dogs are absolutely stunning!

BTW I did not mean (at all!) 'a dog without feelings' or a dog like an empty shell. I know dogs are full of emotions and this is exactly what makes them beautiful. I rather meant "chaotic' behaviour in the meaning of inability to control themselves.

Anyway, thank you for interesting discussion, this made many issues clearer! 

[Keanu]

Just one more thing-I think the British KC rules differ slightly re: dog behaviour in the ring. Honestly, I have attended many of the shows as a spectator or a friend and witnessed this poor "sit down" disqualification. Fair enough, I am only about to start the ringcraft classes with Lunar and the professional KC lady on the other end of the phone repeated to me a few times "if you attend obedience classes with your dog make sure you they will not teach her a "sit" command.