Sasha - One Of These Days ...

[Removed #5]

I've said before that she's bit me, twice [three times?] over food.  Well, last night is probably the frosting on the cake.  She sent me to the ER and 5 stitches (and I have no idea what the financial cost is gonna be) later I'm back home and have to turn around and go back to Alpine for anti-biotics.

 

If I don't put her down this time - - - I'm at wits end.  Please excuse disjointedness, She bit me about 11:00 last night, called local EMS to fix the worst of the damage so I wouldn't bleed all over everything, the fellow across the road drove and I got to the hospital about 12:30 (remember Alpine is about 80 miles north), got "serviced" (washed up and stitched) and got home about 4:30(ish) this morning.  It's now 8:30 - I'm beat, physically and emotionally, and so tired I can't see straight.

 

I thought we were doing well, I haven't had a problem with her in almost a year.  I've been able to move her food bowl while she's eating, etc.  Last night she just went ballistic -  I can handle a lot of things but unpredictable isn't one of them.

 

Right now she's out back, chained to a small cargo trailed on a 15 foot chain; I'll feed and water her and she can get out of the sun under the trailer but I'm pretty much at the point I don't care (lie, I do) I don't know what her past was but obviously I did something last night that keyed old actions.  I'll go into the whole bloody (literally!) scenario later after I get back from the pharmacist and get some sleep.  Maybe in the meantime I can also get a bit more coherent ...

 

[Chula]

I'm sorry to hear this. I hope you are feeling better soon and can get to the bottom of what triggered her biting. I'm sorry for both of you.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

[Clare70]

Oh Al, so sorry to have read this post

 

Hoping things will seem clearer once you've had some proper sleep. Please try not to rush into any decision, things always look better in the morning

 

Sending lots of hugs

[RedJasper]

Al I am sorry that this happened.  I am with you and know how frustrating that it can be.  I hope that you are feeling better soon and that it gets worked out.

[Martian]

Al, so sorry to read about your unpleasant experience but, (as Clare said), please do not make any decisions in haste, (although that is very easy for us to say as we are not in your position).

 

Although my wife and I, (as well as our children previously), have taken responsibility for a number of badly treated animals we have been very fortunate in that we have not had to contend with any real hostilities from any of our dogs, (although I have had quite a few run ins' with other animals - particularly cats and one particular hedgehog), but the damage inflicted by smaller mammals is not quite as drastic as that of a medium to large size canine.

 

I just wish that I could provide you with some sound information that would assist you at this awkward time.

[mydiamond]

Gosh sorry to hear this, Al. I can say nothing more but "wishing you a speedy recovery". 

[Jay]

Get well soon and get some rest, sounds like you need it.  My week doesn't sound as bad in comparison now

 

While I agree not to do something in haste, however unpredictibility is not something that I would be able to deal with.  Saftey of you should be your number 1 priority. 

[Jase]

Sorry to hear of this Al,

 

Take care and I hope you get some rest and clarity for the future.

[Removed #5]

Back from town - 3 hours in and out isn't bad - thanks all for your support and comments.

 

No, I'm not doing anything in haste, as I said, she's on a short leash out back.  The drive into town and back gave me time tho think, but I'm still exhausted.  Later on, I'll toss out the options that I see and discuss them.... figure you all will have, appreciated, comments as well.

 

Jason, that safety is my main concern - each time she's had a go at me it's been more severe than the time before.  I cannot / will not give her another go ... (rhetorical) but what's a body to do?

 

Later folks //al

[Clare70]

Glad you're able to type  

 

You know we are here to listen to your 'problem' and hopefully help, though not sure how

 

[Removed #5]

What happened:

 

Since I have no light out back and Sasha loves to become involved with every bush, twig and water tank she can find, after it gets dark, I play musical dogs at the front door when they need to go out.

Avalanche was outside and Sasha wanted out so I played musical dogs, Sasha out - Avalanche in; it was at that point I realized that he hadn't been fed and his food bowl was on empty (remember I free feed him).  I filled his food bowl and set it down to let him eat ... he nibbled a bit and then left it.  Sasha came up on the porch and pawed the door to be let in, so I let her in with his food bowl still on the floor (stupid! but she's really been a lot better lately)

 

Also remember that Sasha is very overweight and we've been feeding her about 1.5 cups a day trying to get her down from 70ish pounds (not only can I not feel her ribs, I can't even tell where her rib cage ends - she is probably about 25 - 30 pounds over any kinds of decent weight.  Her weight was good until she was spayed and then took off like it knew no limits.  Avalanche stands a good two inches taller than she but she weighs almost twice his weight!

She saw his food bowl so she started chowing down.  I reached for the bowl and she growled - serious growl - so I reached for her collar and got the same growl.  I bumped her with my knee, trying to distract her which got me a snap - no harm, no foul. I went to get the broom which I used early on to move the bowl away from her and she attacked the broom, when I didn't pull the broom back, she them attacked me. Major scramble that I can't really remember so not going to attempt to describe - just a good several seconds of very vicious dog!

 

After she attacked me, I was able to get her down into what amounted to a forced "sit" with my left arm holding her down and my right arm still in her mouth, pulled her mouth off me and then held it shut and her down until she calmed down some and then put her outside.  Did I mention that Avalanche made it out the door during all this?

 

I put her on the leash out front and called Avalanche but he wasn't having any of it and I was in no shape (nerves / shock) to drive to find him.

I called 911 and asked them to come out to take a look and get me ready to transport / drive up to the hospital.  I knew I had enough damage that this wasn't just gonna be wash it off and pray; I'm not particularly afraid of a little blood / cut, normally I just wash it down and let nature run it's course, however, the side of my jeans was literally soaked in blood (and I know it always looks a lot worse than what it is, but this was bad!) .  They got lost finding my place so we played phone tag a couple of times getting them here, but they were her surprisingly quickly, less than 1/2 hour I'm guessing.  The fellow who lives across the road (Darrell) pulled in before they got here, Avalanche was over at his place and when I asked D to bring him over he did wondering why I didn't just come get him, till he got over here and saw why.  EMS arrived, cleaned up the worst of the damage and D drove me up to Alpine to the hospital. I gave the timetable in a previous message so I won't repeat it.

 

My right arm has two major tears,one bite went into the muscle which was easily seen through the flap of skin; four stitches to pull both tears back together.  I'll count the miscellaneous puncture wounds when I change the bandage shortly - I'm guessing in the vicinity of half a dozen.

 

The trip up to Alpine today, mentioned in an earlier post was to get the prescription for an antibiotic filled - that was in a royal haze but I made it in good time and stayed on the road.

 

Enough of this since my hands are hurting ... She did get a less severe bite on my left hand and the bite into the muscle make moving the fingers on my right a bit difficult and oddly , stresses the back of my hand. 

 

As I said in #9 she's out back on a 15 ft lead attached to a trailer, complaining vocally that she wants in and I'm not in any mood.  She's gonna live out there for a while.

 

I've read this about three times, correcting errors, lapses and structure so I'm done. I'll post another later titled Options where I weigh what I can do ... but not right now.  I've had two four-hour stints of sleep but am still 'bushed'

[Asslinn]

That reads as absolutely terrifying, I cant imagine i would be thinking that clearly in the same position, I hope you can recover quickly mentally and psychically! I wouldn't know what to do in your position but wish you the best of luck, did the food aggression start after being spayed? 

[Removed #5]

That reads as absolutely terrifying, I cant imagine i would be thinking that clearly in the same position, I hope you can recover quickly mentally and psychically! I wouldn't know what to do in your position but wish you the best of luck, did the food aggression start after being spayed? 

 

No, she's a rescue and it came with her.  The people who had her before free fed her so never had any of the problems I've had. 

 

If I gave the impression that I'm thinking clearly then I've got you fooled ... that's also part of the reason for putting off "Options" till later.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Al Jones

[Jase]

Hi Al,

 

Have a look at this stuff, it is recommended by a trainer in Oz that deals with very troublesome dogs. It is natural non-drowsy and might be worth considering.

 

http://www.petark.com.au/behaviorissue.html

 

it contains L-Tryptophan which is an essential amino acid that works on mood levels and serotonin. I am sure there are similar things in the USA with similar ingredients, ideally they will also have B group vitamins.

 

Now I am not suggesting that this is going to be a miracle cure, but it may bring things down a notch. If we say Sasha's behaviour was a bad 9/10, this may bring it to <7??

 

There are more serious vet meds to consider but they will be expensive and have associated side effects.

[Removed #5]

History, Thoughts & Impressions

 

I'm really talking to myself here, but feel free to chime in with comments as you see fit.

 

03/08/12 Brought Sasha home from San Antonio; she'd been on the streets, had two known caretakers in SA before I brought her here

03/20/12

04/20/12 Second Bite at moms in Illinois - I apparently didn't write it up.

09/08/12

04/25/14 Fourth Bite (this thread)

 

It wasn't quite a month after I got her that I got bit the first time; then 1 month between the first and second; 5 months between the second and third and 19 months between the third and fourth.  I guess that indicates there's a degree of progress with her.  Alternatively, the degree of bite has become more severe with almost each bite. 

 

Off the cuff chatter, she doesn't counter surf, never has.  If she's in the kitchen with me when I fixing something she's gone from snapping it off the floor immediately to looking at me for me to tell her it's okay.

 

Breakfast for me normally tends to be toast, often with peanut butter - I know, GAG!!  She'll come and set beside me as I've often given her the last bit of crust.  We've gone from snapping at it (real close to fingers) to taking it VERY gently.

 

She sets back when I put her food in her bowl, waits for me to tell her "Okay" or "Get it"; I've been able to pick her bowl up or move it without problem.  The past couple of meals outside she sets and waits for me to put her food down and tell her it's okay, then even waits for me to back up before she eats.

 

Everything I've seen says that I've made good progress with a dog who had a REAL problem - so what the hell happened last night?!?!?!?!?!

 

I know she's been hungry since I've been trying to get some weight off her; but she hasn't pushed the food issue at all.  Waits for what she's going to get and seems satisfied (more or less).

 

Possibly (un)related, Darrel's three female terriers have all come into heat.  I knew that women tended to sync cycles, I didn't know that dogs did.

 

I'm obviously (24 hours after the bite) still angry and frustrated; she is all happy when I come outside and has been asking to come back in and I'm not ready to do that yet.  Maybe being unfair to her since I know what "dog time" is like - pretty much, once it's over it's history.  Wish I could do/feel the same.

 

Emotions are playing havoc with me, frustrated, feel like crying (because it's seemingly not working right?);  I've been napping, but not getting any good sleep; have to take the pill in another hour and then I'll see if I can get a decent nights sleep.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Al Jones

[Jay]

After reading this a couple of times, honestly I would be scared to be around her.  Kodiak growled at me a little when I got in his face and I have a little nervous, and he didn't even snap at me.  I thought about it, but figured that he doesn't like to have faces in his, so I understood so I don't do that anymore.  But if he attacked me like that I really don't know what I would do, but I would seriously consider taking him back to the rescue.  I know how much you get attached to them so quickly, because I cannot imagine my life without these guys, but like I said before your safety is the most important thing to consider.  It sounds very scary and I am glad that it wasn't worse.  

[mydiamond]

Gee I'm glad it wasn't any worse. However at this point I have to agree with Jason. At first we all put it down to her food aggression; and that is something entirely curable. But then you posted about how you could move around her bowl without any problems, and now she bit you again. I don't want to suggest anything but I'd be scared around her too.

[Removed #5]

I've updated my last post as you two were commenting.

 

I wish I could remember the proverb about fear but can't and can't find it;  I'm afraid of what she can do, but I'm not afraid of her - if that makes sense.  There has to be some reason in her past that makes her react as she sometimes has, and I feel regret that it comes out the way it does.  (The fact that it hurts me as well, doesn't really help.)

She's outside, not because I'm afraid of her, I'm more afraid of my own feelings right now. I need some time, some distance to collect myself.

There is no 'rescue' to return her to, she literally got passed from one person to another to me ... just some good people trying to help her out.

In my options section, which will probably come tomorrow - since there is no one to turn her over to, it's either a matter of keep her and work with her or have her put down.  She deserves better than that but at the same time, I deserve the safety of my own home.  that's why I'm thinking out loud.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Al Jones

[Clare70]

Hope the arm is feeling better and things seem clearer after some sleep.

 

I'd hate to be in your shoes right now  I've been thinking what would I do if this ever happened to me and honestly I just don't know.  

 

Just keep on sharing your thoughts

[Removed #5]

Good morning Clare, et al;

She woke me up sometime this am - still dark thirty, complaining about something but I was too exhausted to go look, she's still out back.

 

A few comments about her general attitude then I've got to get some coffee - it's making - and see if I can wake up.

 

Other than this, obviously still major issue with food aggression, she's a very good dog.  She's one of the aloof variety but we still get a fare bit of love and play with her.

 

She's been free to roam the house without restraint because after the initial couple of months she lets me know she needs to go out and will get insistent about it.  Going between me and the door, sitting by the door, woofing if all else fails.  No problems there now.

 

Since the desert breeze is what I use for air conditioning I often have the back patio door, screened, open and the front patio door (unscreeened) open at the same time.  She'll go to the front door, stand there watching Avalanche and generally looking around.  Note: A's food bowl is less than three feet in front of her and she has never even looked at it seriously.  If she steps onto the porch, an "ah ah" brings her back inside.

 

I went out last night before I went to bed to check on her.  She was laying down and didn't respond at all!! when I called her - to the point that I went back in to get a flash to make sure she was all right.  When I came back out, she stood up but calling her to me resulted in what appeared to be a very scared dog.  She'd come towards me then circle away; she never did come close enough to pet and I didn't force the issue.

 

This AM I went out and she was standing there with her tail wagging;  I went over toward her and she immediately assumed belly up - I don't think that was a request for a belly rub, I think it was absolute submission, she got the belly rub anyway.  I came back out a bit later with her food and we got the same routine as before, she backs way off 3 - 4 feet; waits, sitting, for me to put it down and then, even after I say it's okay, she waits till I've moved back before she approaches her food.  I moved back toward her when she'd started eating and she let me, no problems.  She did the typical, for her, grab one kibble, flip it up and either catch it or chase it before eating it - all with me inside her "safety zone".

 

I just do not understand her sporadic violent aggression - if it were a constant that would be one thing; as I've noted earlier, it's been 19 months since she last bit me and an easy 12 months since we've had any problems.  Options and considerations to follow shortly (after I've come more awake).

[mydiamond]

I was about to 'like' your latest post, but then I realized that I don't know what am I 'like'-ing exactly. Is it the fact that she turns back into her sweet self? Is it the fact that she allowed you into her safety zone? Is it simply the fact that you kept us posted? Either way, you're still torn between two difficult decisions right now and you still don't know what happened that night. I guess a 'like' is not exactly appropriate then. Having that said, I don't know what to put in this comment box. I just feel like I should say something. Something. Just to let you know I'm here and listening. 

[Jase]

Your last post sounds good - if that is the right word? It sounds like there is acknowledgement from Sasha for the wrongdoing?? 

 

I do know from minimal research that dogs can suffer from mood swings similar to bi-polar in humans. Sometimes things like this can be treated by medicine and sometimes it can be helped with diet and nutrition. 

 

Anyway, I hope you are feeling better and the emotional scars heal as quick as what the physical will.

[Asslinn]

Could the latest attack been triggered by the way you held the broom? Just been thinking that as she was living on the streets for a while, someone might of hit her, or threatened her with something that looks like a broom. which might have then kicked in her fight or flight instincts. I dunno though just been thinking about you and Sasha.

[goingsolo]

Al, hugs so sorry you are going through this. If only they could talk eh 'sigh'. I fully understand how you are feeling, give it time you have both had a terrible shock and exhaustion makes everything seem bigger and worse. Trust, once broken can be hard to regain and I hope you find a way to a solution. Whatever you decide in the days/weeks to come I feel it will come from the right place, it seems to me that you care deeply and will try until you can give no more.

[Removed #5]

Options:

Given that I'm doing better - the arm is still mildly painful but not too bad - it's time to talk about what to do. I see my options as:

1. Let her back inside and continue on as if nothing has ever happened.
2. Let her back into my life with me more watchful for situations that may trigger her.
3. Continue with her living outside.
4. Give her to a rescue.
5. Put her down.
6. 
   

Considerations:

1. Ain't gonna happen.  If for no other reason than I really have no good idea what triggered the attack - oh, I know the immediate cause (her access to a bowl full of food) but I don't understand where the past years work with her went.
2. If it hasn't come through, I feel partially responsible since I left A's food on the floor; that was a major f-up on my part.  I should have been more aware of that, knowing her past but things have gone so well.
3. Can't do that to her.  No dog deserves to be left alone for the majority of the day and then only get attention when it's feeding time.  Having her outside for the short time was more to give me a chance to emote and think without her immediately underfoot.
4. I don't know of any rescue that would consider a dog who has a history of biting and there's no way I'd give her up without some VERY serious warnings.
5. This is an option I don't want to exercise.  While in the long run it may be for the best, she's come so far in the past year and yes, I've become very attached to the "normal" dog she can be.
6. 
   

And thoughts:

My desire is to take option two.  Realistically my only options are keeping her, being a lot more aware of what I'm doing -and- putting her down.  I have no qualms about putting down a dog who is ill (major, untreatable) or who is so old that there is no good quality of life.  But part of me says that as long as there's life, there's hope. (( yes, I've made up my mind, but still need to work it through. ))

I have to acknowledge that I may have no option, the sheriff has to investigate all dog bites and he may order her put down.  I don't think they will given where I live and she's not a danger to anyone but me. 

 

The severity of the bites has gotten worse as the time between bites has increased.  Do I really want to take the chance that we can go another year or two before something triggers her and I *really* get the worst end of the deal.

 

She and A have been playing - of course he instigates it - and it looks good;  when she's had enough she comes over and sets beside me - my cue to tell him "enough"!  While he's trying to pull her leg off, she's just as apt to have hold of an ear - it's sometimes really funny to watch them.

I'm amused by her when she needs to go out before I'm awake in the morning, she'll come over to the bed and put a paw on it and if that doesn't work she'll "give me a kiss" (( I do not like dogs "kissing" me, lick my hands - that's okay; don't lick my face )) and it's a funny, quick little "slurp", almost as if she knows that will get my attention.

When EMS came by of Friday night and I had her out front, they asked if she was the dog that had bitten me (Avalanche was standing inside the front patio door).  She was great, no problem, went to each of them in turn, said "Hi!" and let them get about their business. 

 

I was going to post two pictures, but they're both bad.  The picture of my arm is a lot more gross looking that it really is since my arm is coated with Vaseline from the bandage.  The other is what I see when I look out my back door, her laying there looking toward the house, "Please let me in ..." and that is tearing a hole in me.

 

Now to respond to the comments that have been posted as I typed this:

Liv, I understand the "Like" situation, since I live by myself, you all have become the surrogate family when it comes to me and the dogs and this is definitely a situation I need to "talk out".

Jase, that's a consideration I hadn't had.  Quite probably worth investigating.  Knowing that a BP incident can be triggered by a seemingly unrelated cause and there's a lot more "chemistry" in common than not, it is definitely worse a call to Aggieland (Texas A&M)

Asslinn, quite possible.  She has no fear of it when I use it to sweep around her but given the situation it may have been a definite trigger to old patterns.

Tina, thanks for the very good words.  It's funny - as I said elsewhen, I'm not afraid of her but there is the issue of trust. 

Edited April 27, 2014 by Al Jones