Lisa n Skye Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Sorry to hear(read) you have been bitten again. With your last post about the way she reacted when you checked on her was probably more to do with her sensing your emotions, remember dogs can pick up on our emotions really easily. So that will have seen a change as the first time you checked on her you probably were more on edge after the incident with the pain and the emotions you had at that time whereas the 2nd time when you had time to collect yourself you were probably alot calmer than you had been. In an earlier post you wrote about from when you got her, it really does seem like you were making really good progress with her. It just seems like something changed the other night, and like you say your not sure what made the change so it was unpredictable what happened. Obviously you have a hard choice to make and i hope you can make the right one for you and her. Its upto you whether you feel you can continue working with her or not. We kinda have this problem with my brothers fiances husky (different reason for the biting tho), She has bit my brother several times each time resulting in the 'chat' about what to do, she is getting better but still when you are the one whose bitten - your emotions are high and you need time to sort through them and work out where to go from there. You need to look at how many times is it worth risking being bitten and which one is gonna be the last time. I hope your arm and hand heal quickly :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa n Skye Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Ahh i have just read your latest post and it looks like at the moment you have decided on option 2 - Just make sure you are careful and like you say just keep an eye out for anything that may trigger her aggressive reaction. I wish you luck with your decision and just remember to make sure you and her both have the space you need now and in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jase Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 It's really hard to give advice with meaning to your situation, but since you have gone to a great deal of effort to outline your thoughts I suppose it is only right to respond accordingly. I say go with option 2 and draw a line in the sand. Do all you can to work out the best way to feed and what is best to feed. Some of the preservatives they put in some foods just don't work with the chemistry in some dogs brains. If it ever looks like another attack is going to happen then it will be time for the gentle green dream (PTS) I would seriously look into a full prey model raw diet if possible, it seems to be something that holistic vets recommend for dogs with behavioural problems. Anyway, I know I can make these suggestions to you Al, as I am pretty well sure you will do the appropriate research to determine whether any of it is worth considering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Jase, a quick look at TX A&M veterinarian web site show several clinical notes on dogs with PTSD and their discussions are interesting. Thanks again for that comment, I'll continue to look at that as an option to work with. TX A&M has a history of working with the medical problems of both the big and small animals associated with the "Agricultural" part of their name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Hi Al, I'm no expert here and haven't got a magic solution but what I can offer is some of my own experiences with Ice. He came to us with food aggression (but it was dog based), and resource guarding (growling at humans but attacking Bear or Brooke). Like you have been doing with Sasha, we too used the nilif method to try and calm him, I also removed every toy from reach and stopped free feeding the girls. When things were good it worked well but its always been a case of two steps forwards and then two steps back, incredibly frustrating. Hes been great for over a year, but a couple of weeks ago he attacked Bear and Brooke on separate incidents causing a small cut on Brooke's face. Because his progress can never be trusted 100% and also because he's a stickler for routine, to this day all three dogs are fed separately and bowls removed as soon as they've finished, toys come down with supervision and removed if he acts up which tbh he doesn't do anymore, but given his past inclinations to regress I'm not prepared to take any chances with him. Removing all temptation is tedious I can't lie, but after a while it becomes routine like and I can then put a few temptations in front of him in a controlled situation. The most frustrating thing is that 99% of the time he's so good with the girls you think he's totally overcome any issues but then bam! One day you become complacent and sods law that's the day that nine shades of hell rain down. Take care Al, whatever you decide, remember we're here to support you. Hope your hand heals up soon. Xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 Emma, you have my heartfelt sympathy and respect. It's rough dealing with a dog who's 99% good as gold and 1% volatile as an atom bomb! I think, as anyone here knows, my decision has to be to try to help her get over her past. As long as I'm healable then we'll work with it; if I'm not healable then we're done with it anyway, no? Do I enjoy playing with fire? Not if I can help it! It hurts! She's not as lovable as Misty was - Misty would literally climb into my recliner with me; she's not as playful as Avalanche is; but in her own way she's a good dog and good company. I've been bitten before by her and other dogs, I'll probably be bitten again - though hopefully not by her; I'm still alive and don't really have a choice - I'm a sucker for the underdog. As she has appeared to be getting better, I've let my guard down - so that's a thing of the past and now we're go full time NILIF again and I'll try to not let her lull me into a false confidence. I can't afford to be non-healable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormchaser09 Posted April 27, 2014 Report Share Posted April 27, 2014 just been reading through all your posts. I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said but wanted to say, you have done a great job with her so far, hope your arm heals and that everything works out for you all.Everyone has to make decisions on things that matter most to them, i.e your safety and also the wellbeing of the dog and you seem to have covered it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I'm going to respond to peoples notes, there may be some repetitiveness but as I've said, this is me thinking this whole mess out. Lisa, one of the things I like about her is that while she wants her space and has no problem showing it (she has one corner with a pad she uses that tells us to "go away") she's also pretty respectful of my time and space ... if I'm on the computer, she's laying by - watching me (which sometimes gets freaky!), if I'm reading, she's laying in front of or beside the chair. It isn't often that she comes over wanting attention and when she does she normally gets it. Jase, prey drive diet / BARF / etc are out, there's nowhere close to get any such - and I'm not feeding her steak while I'm eating hotdogs! - with my electricity being what it is I can't depend on anything staying "fresh" (which probably wouldn't bother her too much but might make me gag!) A change in diet is definitely under consideration, I'd like to find something that has more bulk so she's not feeling hungry all the time (and I see signs that she is) but still take some of the weight off her. I think it was, in part, the hunger that was part of the trigger Friday night. Tina, a lot of the time I'm pretty good at reading dog sign (obviously I plain ignored her warnings Friday) but yes, sometimes it would be such a big help if they could just talk ('course with a Husky, we'd probably never get them to shut up!) Liv, Considering all the comments I've gotten I know you're there and I have to give you (and everyone) my thanks for letting me sound out my thoughts and get some feedback. Jason, I understand what you're saying about being afraid of her, there have been some dogs that I wouldn't give the first chance to bite, by their stance and personality they tell you (me) immediately that they're a very real, very imminent danger. Oddly, I'm not afraid of her (even after all this) the whole episode didn't take 30 seconds and when I had her beside me on the floor (er, after I got my arm out of her mouth!) and she'd started to calm down she was okay again. Me, I've had to admit that a good part of this was my fault. Leaving A's food down was a stupid oversight, ignoring her repeated warning goes beyond stupid - I know dogs pretty well and that was absolutely stupidly ignorant. If she'd not given me any warning then I'd not hesitate to put her down, but she warned me twice, three times to get out of her space before she went ballistic - stupid!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedJasper Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Al, I understand where you are coming from. You have been my inspiration on my journey with Vader. He will do well for a long time then he bites...over food for no reason. Now that I am alone with all 3 and it is just me I am concerned for my safety too. Over time I have contemplated what you are and it is difficult for me too. Just know that there is someone walking beside you in this. We can't know their past as much as we wish we could, and all we can do, is what we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakeo Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Hi Al, so sorry you've gone through all this what an ordeal. This has made me think of some advice/lesson I've been told recently from a very prominent/famous obedience trainer though: When a dog has learned the wrong way to do something, even when we teach them the new right way they will always have the chance of making a mistake. I think it applies to much more than obedience training - when we deal with our dogs issues and show them the proper way to behave, it's not as if they just completely erase their old ways from their brain. They simply now know the way they get praised/rewarded for and the way they get corrected for. I think it's important to realize we can't 100% "fix" something. I'm thankful to hear you're going to keep her around and continue to try. It's very understandable that you'd have a hard time trusting her again after such an attack but as you said if you stay on top of it, she seems to do fine. I wish you the best! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydiamond Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I have nothing to add, but I did hear some time ago in the forum that there's this dog with "rage syndrome" or something like that. I can't recall what's it called, but it's exactly what it sounds like. Rage, sudden outbursts of them. The only thing that differentiates rage syndrome and PTSD is the fact that rage syndrome has no cause. Canine PTSD is also a good guess. I watched a show about it... a dog rescued from a war zone in Afghanistan ended up with PTSD, which is shown by sudden bursts of aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Al, I understand where you are coming from. You have been my inspiration on my journey with Vader. He will do well for a long time then he bites...over food for no reason. Now that I am alone with all 3 and it is just me I am concerned for my safety too. Over time I have contemplated what you are and it is difficult for me too. Just know that there is someone walking beside you in this. We can't know their past as much as we wish we could, and all we can do, is what we can. Maybe you'd better look for some better inspiration cause Al isn't doing to well at the moment. Thanks for the very kind word and while it's not nice to know someone is going through the same thing, it *is* nice to know that someone else understands - it's a lot more than just "these are the repercussions of your (a dog) acting the way you do!" If we can't go that extra mile, or two or three or four then where is our humanity. Take care of yourself, it's never easy having to be on guard 100% of the time - but it sure beats the ramifications ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) I have nothing to add, but I did hear some time ago in the forum that there's this dog with "rage syndrome" or something like that. I can't recall what's it called, but it's exactly what it sounds like. Rage, sudden outbursts of them. The only thing that differentiates rage syndrome and PTSD is the fact that rage syndrome has no cause. Canine PTSD is also a good guess. I watched a show about it... a dog rescued from a war zone in Afghanistan ended up with PTSD, which is shown by sudden bursts of aggression. Oh, c'mon Liv you always have something good to add! No, "rage aggression" is defined as unprovoked aggression with no warning - for no apparent reason. She was provoked - I was trying to take her food away; she gave warning - which I ignored (shame on me!). But, quite seriously, thanks for offering the suggestion, I'm trying to examine all possibilities and the best diagnosis I can see is severe food aggression, it can be worked with but not if you ignore the warning! (DAMNIT!!) Jamie, I think you could draw the equivalent with the alcoholic who's found he can "deal with" his problems by staying drunk; then he gets his 50th ticket and is forced to straighten up, they learn they can live without the alcohol but it's for many such a small step back across the line. And they have a logical brain to work things out with. Aggression from food guarding, I think, has to be a learned trait; it can be worked with and somewhat unlearned, but it seems such a small step back into the old ways. If I hadn't pushed it when she warned, I could probably have gotten the bowl away from her eventually without harm, I pushed the limits and she stepped across them as old known behaviour. Edited April 28, 2014 by Al Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydiamond Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 But it does seem your training with her brought results already. Is it fair to say "keep going on you'll get there soon" though? I'll go back to lurking mode now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) But it does seem your training with her brought results already. Is it fair to say "keep going on you'll get there soon" though? I'll go back to lurking mode nowThat's part of the reason I went back and reviewed when she'd bitten me. Yes, I do think I've had a degree of success; I also think that if I ignore her warnings she'll revert to the known aggression. As in the example I gave Jamie, I don't think it's something that can ever be completely cured - learned traits are hard to break; but I do think that given time I can help her find other ways though never with 100%, guaranteed success. Edited April 28, 2014 by Al Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare70 Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I'm really happy you've chosen not to give up on her and I commend you for it! I think we all take for granted that our furbabies are animals and personally I would never 100% trust an animal. We can train 'till our hearts content in the belief they will act the way we want, when we want but we should never forget they can and will act in a way we deem inappropriate, whatever that may be. IMO it is magnified with a rescue dog as we just don't know what they have been through prior to their life with 'us'. I believe there is no such thing as a 'bad' dog, just a 'bad' owner, I mean we aren't dr doolittle, so unable to 'hear' what they are trying to say to us, though this doesn't make us 'bad' owners! Each day my boys 'behave' do as I expect without any ramefications makes me feel blessed! Each time they do something 'unacceptable' I try to learn from it and adjust how I'm going to try and be a better dog owner. These are just my own personal feelings and in no way a slant on you Al, I don't for one minute want you to think it's your fault what happened or that I'm blaming you for what happened. Having just read back what I've typed, it could sound condescending and I could easily have deleted it, but if we were face to face I would say the same things, though not have the ability to press the delete button Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Clare, you didn't say anything with which I could take offense. So no worry's there. I've said it several time, I messed up when I left Avalanche's food bowl down, I messed up even worse when I ignored her warnings, so to a pretty significant degree I blame myself for getting bitten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare70 Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I guess you've learnt your lesson Don't suppose your hand agrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) Well, it was my arm not my hand but that to the side - it's getting better. Took the bandages off to give it a chance to dry out. I'd much rather not have a wound bandaged all the time. Still quite swollen though. Antibiotics and antibiotic ointment ... don't want an infection. She's acting "reserved" for lack of a better word. Avalanche has instigated play with her and she pretty much gives him a "leave me alone" - she doesn't come to me to hide from him like she did, she's just laying there; basically it's a non-response. She lays in the doorway between the kitchen and the living room, so to go get coffee, etc I have to step over her. Occasionally she's flinched, like she's expecting to be kicked. I'll admit I have "kicked" her a time or two - she raises her head as I go to step over - clunk!, that type of thing. I have also stepped on her in the dark, going to the loo - but she's not been intentionally hit or kicked. She's still standing back from her food bowl, waiting for me to leave it before she goes to it to eat. She had been joining me in the kitchen when I go to cook something, she isn't ... called her in last night with a treat and we played "which hand?", then told her to set when she (obviously) selected the right hand and got an excited little squirm as she sat. Note: her food and water bowls are in the living room just inside the door - so I can see her; at the moment, they're just a couple of feet from her. It's not (never has been) like she's guarding them, I can go do anything I want with either of them but then she's never far from either of them. As I said, when the water bowl needs filling or it's meal time she backs up to give me space. In retrospect, I'm wondering if I popped her (that's a light tap on her butt) Friday night - I don't remember, but it's also almost an unthinking reaction from me. For an example, if she's standing in the doorway and won't move, so I tap her and say "Hey, move!" it's a long way from hitting her, but normally enough to get her (or Avalanche's) attention. That surprise, while she was in food aggressive mode could easily explain the violent reaction. I really wish I could understand her.......... Edited April 29, 2014 by Al Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mydiamond Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 I really wish dogs could speak as well but that is a legit guess alright Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Hopefully things improve and there are not anymore incidents like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Hopefully things improve and there are not anymore incidents like that Yeh, tell me!!!! Glad I mostly heal quickly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emma Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 Sorry it's taken so long to reply, I didn't realise there were any updates (my own fault, forgot to subscribe to the thread). Sounds like you know what direction you're heading in and figured out the triggers behind the action which helps a lot. Tbh I'm not surprised Sashas feeling out of sorts and subdued, the whole things probably knocked her for six too, it will take a while for her to relax again but she'll get there eventually. I know that when Something happens with Ice: like for arguments sake, he bumps into another dog who gets in his face and growls at him. It sounds like such a small thing but it really unsettles ice and for a few days after he is very jumpy and grumpy, doesn't want to be too close to us and even grumbles slightly if I step over him. He's a sensitive soul, lol. It's not a reaction to anything I've done per say, more so a reaction due to his current state of emotional unease. Perhaps some of this is true for Sasha too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Removed #5 Posted April 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 (edited) I know I'm rambling somewhat on this thread, for those who are wondering why I'd keep a dog that has now bitten me - with varying degrees of success - on four different occasions. Here are a few reasons 99.9% of the time: She's a great traveling dog; either she's looking over my shoulder or she's asleep in the back of the jeep. She'll let me know if she *really* needs out, otherwise she just waits till I stop. I can walk her, normally, without being worried that she'll pull me off my feet; an "easy" will bring her back to a completely loose-leash walk. Though she has pulled my feet out from under me a time or two when she's been on her long leash. (What's the word I'm looking for "tripping someone by hitting them at ankle level?") I can leave the jeep with the windows down and she's "asleep" in the drivers seat when I get back. (Seldom over 1/2 way down, BTW) A simple "in back" gets me in the drivers seat again. I can leave her loose in the house when I'm gone and have never had to wonder if I'll have a house when I get back. She's at the door waiting for me. Her favourite spot to lay - in the doorway between the kitchen and living room - is also between the bag of dog food and the trashcan - she's never gotten into either of them. She is generally an amazingly gentle dog, if I hand her a treat I have to watch to make sure she has it, she's so gentle that if I didn't I wouldn't be sure. She'll happily lay inside an open door, with no apparent intention of running off. I've grown attached to her .... nuff said?? Edited April 29, 2014 by Al Jones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asslinn Posted April 29, 2014 Report Share Posted April 29, 2014 I would probably do the exact same thing if Keiko were to bite me as well. You keep rambling if it helps you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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