Aggression, advised to put the dog down

[Gem]

Hi everyone.
I'd like to apologize in advance for any possible grammar errors, or my sentences being all over the place. It's 6am here and I've had very little sleep in the last couple of nights — I feel like I've turned the Internet upside down trying to find a solution for my lovely B. I'm also sorry for a lengthy entry, especially cause I haven't been an active member, but I feel like this is the place I can come for an honest answer.

B's story started in September 2013. She was the only girl in the litter if I recall correctly and she was the most quiet and reserved one. I picked her up at just 5 or 6 weeks old. I know now and I knew it then, that it was very unresponsible thing to do because a puppy should have been left with the mother for 8~10 weeks. But the situation was that she had to be picked up. These people weren't professional breeders.

I believe my first mistake was the early upbringing. I couldn't find any other dogs to socialize her with, until she was around 6-7 months old. We started hanging out with another group of dogs and their owners. It was absolute torture for her — she'd only want to get away, no matter how much I tried for her to make a 'bond' with another dog. Nothing worked.
At the same time, we noticed her disobedience to orders and decided to take her to a professional dog trainer. She was in training for two weeks. First week was just the trainer and her, I joined the next week and we practiced together. She was doing great, it was showing how much of an intelligent dog she is.
The trainer, though, wasn't completely satisfied. I don't recall his exact words, but even if I did — the guy was incredibly cryptic, and I wasn't sure what it was that he wanted to say. What I remember is that he kept telling me about how I have to take control of her and 'dominate', get her respect otherwise I'll end up dead in two years, once she reaches three years and matures.
I think I managed to do this, but partially. B doesn't jump at me, she listens and walking her is not a problem (never really was anyway). She doesn't like combing, washing is impossible and checking her for ticks is hard work, she can't keep calm so I'm guessing she doesn't actually trust me? I have never really tried to provoke her, but I'm afraid she would turn aggressive if I'd take her food, toy or if I'd touch a wound for example.

To get to the point, B has bitten four times.
First time she bit my mother while she was giving her a cookie — my mom's friend was next to her and B wouldn't stop barking so she 'caught' and scratches her hand a bit (She doesn't like some people at all, for no real reason. We couldn't find a "pattern" no matter how hard we tried). This has happened again, similar thing. They weren't real 'bites', and weren't directed towards my mother. She loves both of my parents very much as they often play with her and give her treats.
Third time, she bit a woman petting her. The woman took her head with both hands, even though we said not to DO anything until B approaches, she wouldn't listen. The woman had to go to the hospital and she got a few stitches.
Fourth bite happened to my grandpa. I don't exactly know how it happened, but from what he said - he tried to 'clean' around her eyes, and he grabbed her by the collar so he could clean her better. She bit him, and let go when he hit her on the head. No stitches, but the doctors said it was quite a bad bite. Now, I'm not trying to make excuses for B, but grandpa doesn't have a gentle hand, and he always played with her in a very unappropriate way (hitting her with a glove on her head, smacking her paws while she's sleeping). We've told him to stop doing that, but obviously B hasn't forgotten.

The trainer said if she bit someone from the household, she has to be put down, immediately. I honestly don't think he even listened to the whole story. I live in a small country, and professional help is something I am not able to get here. There is literally zero trainers that work with more mature dogs, or deal with more difficult examples of aggression.

I'm terrified of what will happen next. My heart is broken into pieces, but I know I can't keep her if the first trainer was right. I can't risk her biting again if there's a chance it could be fatal.

Has any of you heard of such cases, do you know if there's anything other option for us, other than putting her down?

Thank you very much in advance.

[robke]

from what I have read there is no need tp put her down imo she has been defending herself and reacting to a unkown situation for example the woman petting her ...you do not take a strange dog by the head to pet her same as grandpa with the collar grab it is a defensive reaction they do this in a pack as well...training would help but I do understand that where you are they are far and few..you could look into a muzzle for B but I do believe some training might be better and educating family and friends about not grabbing collar or smacking on the head might be helpfull as well...and just do not let strangers come up to her to pet  I always say the dog wil come to you if it wants a pet from you how cute they might think she or he is...

[Jase]

It sounds like you had a very very bad trainer unfortunately - there are plenty of them out there . I recommend finding a positive reinforcement trainer to help you. The bites that happened were mainly in stress situations, so that is not grounds for euthanising in my opinion. 

A good trainer will help you work through these issues and work on desensitisation techniques where you can for instance grab the collar, touch ears etc confidently by beginning with high value food rewards.

Also, make sure you have a thyroid test for your dog - what you describe can be symptoms associated with a thyroid issue. If diagnosed it is a easy one to maintain with medication. 

Best of luck in moving forward 

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Was she like this before she went to training (the biting I mean?) you weren't around for the first week the 'trainer' might have actually caused these issues from her , I would second what's been said about a thyroid check and also to find a good trainer/behaviorist who actually knows what they're doing

[Awolf401]

I would second what's been said about a thyroid check and also to find a good trainer/behaviorist who actually knows what they're doing

I will go ahead and third this suggestion. 

Ill go a little further and say that I agree with the previous two posts entirely.  B doesn't sound mean just really really defensive. 

[Markulous]

Quite honestly have never heard of a "trainer" as poor as yours! We've had a foster dog come in who would've bitten us if we tried to take his food away - and left later, with us being able to do anything with food. We've had problems with possessiveness over toys before now and have achieved sharing between all our, currently 6 with a foster. I've seen dogs with serious problems turned around. You do not have a dog with serious problems! There's issues with food and handling but they can easily be resolved, chiefly by being nice about it all and not punishing. As suggested, find a good trainer if you're unsure of how to proceed

[Gem]

Was she like this before she went to training (the biting I mean?) you weren't around for the first week the 'trainer' might have actually caused these issues from her , I would second what's been said about a thyroid check and also to find a good trainer/behaviorist who actually knows what they're doing

She was, just not as much. She was 7 months old when I took her there. I am not sure if the first two "attacks", if you can call them that, happened before or after, but it was around that time when her teeth weren't big enough to be considered dangerous. They were more of a scratches that happened while she was in a highly aggravated state (cause of strangers standing next to my mother).
Also, I forgot to add that she doesn't bark on people on the street. She sniffs some, but doesn't really notice most. "Her territory" — completely different thing. She just doesn't stop barking in most cases. Again, some people she doesn't mind, but I still advise everyone not to come close.

I forgot to mention, B lives on a terrace connected to my apartment, around 30 square meters big. She was never really interested in being inside with me, just ocasionally if it's raining or if it's very hot outside, but she sleeps and plays outside. I would have let her in the yard to dig and have fun, but I'm just scared to do so cause of her defensive behaviour. I don't know how she'd act if a neighbour would drop by, or postman.

I though of checking the thyroid, but the veterinarian, or the trainer didn't even mention the option. I will definitely request that to be checked. Thank you for the suggestions

As far as the trainer goes... Well, I don't know what to say. He's the best there is in Croatia. (Which obviously isn't difficult to be, considering there aren't many to begin with.) He's the only real licensed professional in this country as well... But yes, I do agree with you, and there's other people too who think his training just might not be... well, right. He isn't the nicest guy, quite rude to people, but the dogs seem to like and respect him. I can't say for sure what he does with dogs in the first week. He said it's strictly forbidden that I see B during the first week — this is because he has to take control of her, and me showing up would completely ruin that.
I am not sure if I'll find someone with a positive approach, a kind trainer. The other 'respected' one is a difficult person as well, working with mostly rescue and police dogs. But I'll try. Of course, due to her behaviour, I can't just give her to anyone who is a trainer purely out of love and enthusiasm.

Do you think me and my father could do the training by ourselves? Would it be okay if two persons work with her? Also, could you recommend me any books, DVDs, online courses...? I've read / watched a few (one of them published by the before mentioned trainer, heh), but I'm not sure which one to follow anymore. I know I sound like a total idiot and not a person who should have gotten a husky, but it's really not like that, it's just that this whole situation has made me extremely confused and insecure.

But yes..
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH for the replies. You've given me so much hope!

[robke]

just on a point offcourse you have to be there with training you ned to know what to do I would NEVER leave any dog with a trainer and me not be there with them..you never know what kind of abuse the trainer might do to your dog and especialy if they do not know the character of a husky..they are very different then for example a lab or gsd...

[Gem]

I know that now and I definitely wouldn't do it again. But it's very easy to get talked into doing that when they tell you it's the only option and the dog might kill you for no reason in two years. And after all he's been in the bussiness for yearssss.
Looking at it now, I can see it was a bad decision, but I couldn't imagine it would lead to something terrible like this, really. I've obviously made a few big mistakes cause one just led to another. She means so much to me that in all this panic I ruined so much.
Right now I just hope it's not too late, I'd never forgive myself.

[Awolf401]

Ill preface this by saying that I don't know your dog and have never met your dog.  All I know is what you have posted here.  What I say is intended as advice but not gospel.

I'm not sure if there is any such thing as too late when it comes to a dog.

I would say educate yourself looking online there are some great threads here on this site I know that much. The more information you can grab the better off your going to be.  You know you and you know your dog and you are going to know what is best when you get a grasp of things.  Just because someone has been in an industry for a long time doesn't mean they know what they are doing. I have been in the computer industry for about 15 years now and I run into people who have been in it longer and dont know the difference between a mac and a pc and they still somehow get business.

  I'm not going to sit here and slam someone I don't know but I will tell you that it boils my blood to hear this trainer say things like "Take control of the animal" and "Dog could kill you in your sleep" .  Yes, my dog could kill me in my sleep.... anything with teeth that big could but I have trust there with my dog.

I think the logo at the top of the forum says it all "A breed above the rest" Husky's are such a completely different dog that its obvious this guy has not worked with Husky's enough to know what he is doing.

I haven't read one thing yet that says you and your father couldn't train that dog.  Again I'm not there so I can't say for sure.  You need to put in the time and give them the affection they need. Also, remember that all dogs are different and they will have different triggers. You seemed to know what set your dog off so to start with I would avoid those situations till you can build your trust relationship back up.

Before someone says it I do want to say that when I say trust I don't mean the kind of trust where you can let your husky run off lead out in the open. You should never leave your husky off lead.  If they have a chance to run a way they typically will.

Here are some things that I learned that might help.  I invite others to add to this list or correct me. I'm not an expert just an owner.  I'm not above suggestions for my own husky.

Remember a tired husky is a good husky.  Exercise is always a must.

Husky's are pack animals and need leadership

Leadership doesn't mean violence and anger.

Husky's crave companionship

Calmer voices prevail. Panic voices scare or get ignored.

 

 

I wish you luck.

 

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

So long as you and your dad agree on a training method and both do the same thing then there should be no problem in having you both train her

[Gem]

@Awolf - When I asked him about his experience with Huskies, he said — first of all, your dog is not a Husky, and he had given a rough guess that B is around 50% Husky (I admit, I've only seen her father from a distance, he was few houses away. He could have something else in him, he seemed quite big so maaaybe Malamute, but definitely not a Swiss Shepherd, like it was suggested.) and even if she was 100%, he claimed those 'stereotypes' are false. He only agreed on the part that she does need a lot of exercise. But shorty after that added that it's something all dogs do anyways. I can't say he encouraged me to train her to walk off lead, but he did say that it's a common belief that Huskies shouldn't walk off lead, which is incorrect, and that every dog can be taught that.
But of course, I never let her off lead and I never intended to. Like you said, it's so obvious that this breed is so much different from the others with their certain traits.
Ah, idk anymore. There's still a lot of people who had great experience with him, but like you said, this doesn't guarantee he was right for us, at all...
Thank you so, so much for your post.

You're all so encouraging, complete opposite from all these professionals and sketchy know-it-alls I'm surrounded by. Such a positive shock, wow!

Anyhow~ here's some photos of B. I'm not using my computer at the moment so I can't exactly say how old they are, but I believe the first (well, first three) were when she way around 6 months old, and the other two are both recent, May/early June (so a year and 9months old). ^_^

[BingBlaze n Skyla]

Shes stunning .. Your right she does look like she might have some mal in her , you should always teach a recall just incase she ever escapes which long leads are a god send for but walking offlead as u know is not a good idea

[Laura980]

Your B is beautiful. Like posts above I am no expert and I don't know your baby,  but we adopted a husky from a shelter at 4 years of age. Kira is a our second.   Her story is  much different to yours but I think that she had some similar situations very early in her life. Kira was different case she was abused ( hit on head kicked around) and starved by the previous owners and we were told she escaped 3 times from owners. The vet said she had been injured and could tell straight away by examining her.    When we adopted her she was frightened little girl, then feared men approaching her and cowering, her aggressiveness towards other dogs was so frightening and she suffered badly from SA. We were told that she most likely was not socialised as a pup and possibly taken away from her mother early imprinting stages. her past life of 4 years she would have had very limited exposure to other dogs.... So my poor baby had some serious issues. We did the training thing, socialisation thing, with lots of reading getting involved with husky clubs getting advice from husky owners, providing Kira with lots of love attention, a routine, exercise, teaching her the "No"s when she would growl or chew or shred took time but we did it in calm way.  Her aggression now towards dogs has diminished a lot, her fear of people has changed, our training with Kira was all based on praise and reward when is given a command and repeated practice.. We no longer have any problems with Separation Anxiety - we always still today leave tv on for her, lights on and give her small treat when we leave the house. Huskies need a lot of love and need someone to take leadership and become pack leader.  But this I think can be done is a calm passive state. Without negative response We have even watched many of Ceaser Way videos just to get ideas of how he manages to turn aggressive dogs into calm happy dogs..  All I can suggest like others don't give up on your baby... We were at our wits end with Kira initially but we never gave up on her and she is now the calmest most placid girl and has changed so much... get as much advice from husky owners. Huskies are so unique and different to other breeds....

[Awolf401]

Very pretty furbaby.  I'm not a geneticist but there has to be husky in there somewhere.

[HuskyDawgDad]

Aggressive dogs can be very challenging and hard to deal with.  I owned an Australian Shepherd who was dog agro his whole life.  I was never able to get him over it but fortunately was able to minimize it by limiting his exposure to other dogs.  He was okay without me, like when he went to the vet so we could kennel him for vacations.  He had a brother who we had first, and his brother was his only dog friend.  He lived 14 years with only one bad incident that honestly was all our fault.

I would caution that big dog and aggression can lead to big injuries so do what you can to find a good trainer who can work with you and your pet.  Until then you need to be mindful of her aggression triggers and do what you can as an owner to minimize the risk that she has of being in those situations.  It is best for her and for your human friends.  Good luck!  I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you.

Jamie

[Gem]

Thank you all for your very encouraging replies!
Can't really do much over the weekend in terms of asking for a professional help, but I'm contacting some people on Monday, hoping they'll won't be as harsh as the first two trainers.
I'll definitely let you all know what happens next, hopefully they'll be positive like you are!

[Baz]

Hi Gem,

Firstly, welcome.

I've left responding for a few days cos when I read the first few posts, I thought if I hit the keypad now I'll probably write something that will make work for our lovely moderators in either deleting the post, or at least editing it!

I saw the expression "made my blood boil" with regard to the first trainer - me too. Is this guy a trainer? for me he's in the wrong job.

I do believe it was a mistake to allow the trainer sole access to B, without your presence. For me, I want to know what he's doing, what techniques he's using. Two reasons for that, if they are successful, I will learn from it and be able to continue and build on those methods. Secondly, if I don't like his methods (cruel, brutal, negative etc) then it's end of contract, and you don't come near my dog again.

On a positive note, what I detect in all your posts is that you love B, and you are not prepared to give up on her. It's also nice to read all the positive replies you've had, none of which I could disagree with. She is indeed beautiful, and I am sure that with positive reinforcement training, you can achieve a positive outcome.

Like B, my Kaiser was not the result of professional breeders, and was removed from his parents and siblings at 7 weeks - earlier than I would prefer, but as in your case, sometimes circumstances dictate these things, and as the new owner we have to deal with it. With regard to aggression, is it? or is it defence as some posts suggest. There can be a problem with the young child, and I suspect with the older generation, who think a playful tap on the head is just that - playful - whereas it is probably a lot harder than they imagine, and B may not regard it as "playful". It seems to be a trigger, and needs to be avoided. Indeed it's probably worth avoiding any form of head contact for the time being, no matter how gentle, cos B may well anticipate the "slap" is coming next.

Since no one other than B and the "trainer" were present for that first week, you cannot be sure that his methods have not made the situation worse. However, Huskies are a very different breed. By nature, they crave companionship, are very loving and affectionate, and will respond positively to love and affection. I read somewhere, that they are very forgiving. They are one of very few breeds that no matter how ill treated they may be, they never turn "mean".

Hope this helps, stick with it and you'll get there. Problems, questions, use this forum for support. Somebody out there may well have experienced, or be experiencing, similar problems, and be willing to offer advice.

Sure it will work out.

Baz

 

[Cascara]

Did you see either of the parents then as I would say you had a GSD x husky or malamute depending on the size of the feet.

[Gem]

Since no one other than B and the "trainer" were present for that first week, you cannot be sure that his methods have not made the situation worse. However, Huskies are a very different breed. By nature, they crave companionship, are very loving and affectionate, and will respond positively to love and affection. I read somewhere, that they are very forgiving. They are one of very few breeds that no matter how ill treated they may be, they never turn "mean".

Hope this helps, stick with it and you'll get there. Problems, questions, use this forum for support. Somebody out there may well have experienced, or be experiencing, similar problems, and be willing to offer advice.

Sure it will work out.

Baz

There are some videos on YouTube, and people have indeed commented that he's way too aggressive and hard on the dogs... If you want I can link the videos so you can see his method? You won't understand much cause it's on Croatian, but I can translate what he's saying. Thank you very much for your post, means so much to have all this support! ^_^

Cascara — I've found a picture of the parents. Not very hq, but at least something~

[Baz]

Gem,

If you would send me the links to the videos I would be very interested to see how he works. It might be in Croation, but if I see what I suspect I'm going to see, I doubt that a translation will be necessary!

The photo of the parents is interesting, but as you say not of the highest quality. I am assuming that the white one is the mother, and she has the characteristic mask of a Sibe. The father? looks a little long in the body, but it's difficult to judge as they are standing at different angles. Height wise tho, he doesn't appear to be much larger then the mother, and he's holding his tail in a very husky-like way. It's a pity there's no real gauge for sizing.   

Baz

[Gem]

Sent you a message with the link~

[Awolf401]

Yea the gray black dogs torso is really long but the fur size and coat says huskie to me. Pretty dogs either way.

II agree with baz its very obvious you care about B and that's the important part.

Glad you got the answers and encouragement you needed. 

[Cascara]

Sent you a message with the link~

Can I see too please?